For a Shaman who wants to melee level, do I need to be Ogre/Troll?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I showed you very clearly how DoT damage for the example you provided was greater than melee damage, ie. > 1/2. It's impossible for me to show that melee damage was <1/3 though, because you used a Cleric and didn't provide any pet damage (ie. 1/3 of the data).

Now you can cherry pick the data by arguing over which spells to use, or you can go find a new parse of a level 27 vs. a very low blue ... or whatever. Changing the goalposts won't change the blatantly obvious fact that as a caster Shaman are going to generally do more damage with spells than melee (especially the higher level you get).

I'll say it one last time, and then I'm done with this thread: there are three Shaman play styles, and they all have value. Which one is optimal has to do with tons of factors; your melee damage output is only one.

If you weigh all of those factors, you will undoubtedly come to the conclusion that tanking for every mob you ever face is sub-optimal (even with a great melee weapon and haste). The details will vary, but I'm still convinced that as a caster class Shaman follow the general pattern of all casters: the more your level goes up, the more your melee damage becomes less and less of your total DPS. Hell, as Snaggles reminded me, from 45+ it's guaranteed Shaman melee damage will be the minority (unless you are an Iksar, sorry), because there is no weapon in the game with the DPS to match the JBB.

Don't play a Shaman (or any Priest) if you want to beat on things and have that beating be meaningful for your character's career: play a hybrid.

I am not going to let you keep moving the conversation and the goal posts to try and keep your self as being "right"[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Please just admit you were wrong on your previous points, so we can move on, and you can help people with the proper information. Let me quote you all the times you talked about how much Priest melee damage is "supposed to do":

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm saying on P99 Shaman melee damage is < 1/3 total damage, at least most of the time, once you get past (roughly) 20.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Right, but that is a VERY different statement from "Shaman can deal a significant percentage of their damage via melee at level 40."

Again, I think two different things are being conflated in this thread:

A) pretending your Shaman is a melee class and trying to do significant damage from your weapon (which in my experience stopped working around the 20s, on both my Shaman and Cleric) ... vs.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Look, even if we make up numbers and say pet damage = 1/3, melee damage = 1/3, DoT damage = 1/3 ... you still wouldn't want to melee all the time. Why? Because some mobs will hit so hard that if you melee them to get that extra 1/3 damage, you will need far more mana to heal yourself up afterwards (vs. if you just rooted the mob and didn't melee).

Those are just three examples of where you claimed a Shaman's melee damage past 20 would be 30% or less. This just isn't the case. 6.2 (probably a bit higher in most cases) vs. 6.4 is above 90%, and well beyond 30%. Your idea is just false.

You keep going back to pets, but that is irrelevant in this conversation. There is no situation in which a Shaman who melees would not use a pet vs. a Shaman who root/rots. There is no reason to include them in the calculation, because they will be there regardless. We only need to compare Melee vs. SPELL DoTs.

You also bring up the point about Shaman melee past 45. I have said repeatedly in this thread Shaman melee starts to fall off in the 40s, so I am not sure why you are bringing it up, I never claimed otherwise.

If you think a Cleric fighting a yellow mob that has MORE AC than a normal mob of that level is "Cherry Picking", you simply do not understand melee mechanics on P99 very well. Most mobs will parse the same way in the lower levels, unless they are specifically an undercon, like a dungeon boss.

You also keep dodging my point about resistances[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] They do play a factor in DPS and recovery time, which significantly affects kills per hour in solo situations.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is an argument even with the current state of FSI that an ogre is 1/3rd more efficient.

Having watched Ogre and Barbarian Shaman literally race each other doing West Wastes dragons with the killspeed difference being mere seconds, I'd like to see that argument.

Ogre is funny, and its largest effect appears psychological: There are players who think picking Ogre turns 'em into some sort of Norrathian super hero. It isn't real, but because they think it's real, they end up doing more with the Ogre than they'd even attempt otherwise. Remember that "hidden stats" guy from a few years ago? They're out there.

Danth

[Crede]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Having watched Ogre and Barbarian Shaman literally race each other doing West Wastes dragons with the killspeed difference being mere seconds, I'd like to see that argument.

Ogre is funny, and its largest effect appears psychological: There are players who think picking Ogre turns 'em into some sort of Norrathian super hero. It isn't real, but because they think it's real, they end up doing more with the Ogre than they'd even attempt otherwise. Remember that "hidden stats" guy from a few years ago? They're out there.

Danth

There's no evidence out there that an Ogre can kill anything a non-ogre can't, but having played eligible Ogre classes as both an Ogre/Non-ogre the advantage is most certainly real, especially at 60 when you're done leveling.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Having watched Ogre and Barbarian Shaman literally race each other doing West Wastes dragons with the killspeed difference being mere seconds, I'd like to see that argument.

I mean...it's not MY argument [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] . I just know it is one.

Personally I'm a pick what you like the look of the best, kind of gamer. Hence the erudite paladin. Hell, half the time I can hardly see at night.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I mean...it's not MY argument [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Right, to clear up any confusion--I did not mean to imply it was your argument. I was only asking you to relay the particulars because you have heard it and I have not. If you don't want your forum handle associated with such absurdity, I understand.

Crede: I ain't claiming Ogre doesn't have a modest advantage--it does, on the order of a few per cent as demonstrated through testing such as that done by Shamwowi. However, the specific "1/3 more" quoted claim seems absurd unless it references some very specific, cherry-picked situation, so it peaked my interest.

Danth

[Snaggles]

I understand that FSI was changed so that rather than being "immune" ogres in one of the three bash scenarios they are not stunned. That was the nod to the 1/3rd scenario.

IIRC:
Bashed and stunned (ogre)
Bashed and interrupted (all vulnerable)
Bash and just damaged/not interrupted (none vulnerable)

Frankly, rolling torp with a mob slowed 75% with a bash timer on like 40 seconds if you die from not being an ogre there are other factors more likely to kill you. Your ISP, mob melee RNG, a random fizzle, that 2nd whiskey but how so delicious, etc.

All that said, glad we have added the legal footnotes. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Note: Yes poor phrasing on my behalf. NOT 1/3rd more efficient. 1/3rd more efficient at not getting bashed stunned. So yea...fractions of a percent if that, of overall efficiency. Likely never realized.

[DMN]

if the sunken cost fallacy and confirmation bias had a baby:

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There's no evidence out there that an Ogre can kill anything a non-ogre can't, but having played eligible Ogre classes as both an Ogre/Non-ogre the advantage is most certainly real, especially at 60 when you're done leveling.

[Foxplay]

Personally I wouldn't waste your time trying to make a class level or play in a way it's not meant to. Even if you do race is not going to matter as much as gear. And even then even with all the twink gear possible a melee shaman or melee cleric or any caster class is still going to be very lack luster

As for endgame again race is not as important as gear. A barb shaman with raid gear and 1k+ AC is going to have an easier time than an ogre shaman with crap gear and junk AC

Secondly at endgame the best shamans are the ones that can keep up with constantly casting and chaining spells while generating Mana and keeping torpor always up.

TLDR; pick which race you like to look at. Worry about gear and later on patience with forever casting

[mattydef]

Originally Posted by Gozuk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I leveled my Shaman to 50 using primarily melee. It was fun and I felt like it was pretty efficient especially once I got pet and haste spell. He's an Iksar. Not majorly twinked but I had 21% worn haste, a PWC till around level 25 or 30 and then 30/36 Velium brawlstick after that. Iksar regen BP. Really enjoyed leveling him up!