Shamwowi's Shaman Race Guide

[Fammaden]

Iksar > barb for fashion. Prove me wrong.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by CheopisIV [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My point is this is a game, not a way of life or religion. People will have different opinions and that's just the way it is. I'm not wasting anybody's time, we're all wasting our own.

Nobody here has claimed that you cannot prefer Trolls over other races. Your preference is not a fact that proves Trolls are objectively better, however. Please just say it is you opinion, instead of looking like you want a discussion, or have your questions answered. That is wasting peoples time, because they take their time to respond to you, but you don't actually want a response. Your point that "this is just a game" was not clearly stated anywhere until this last post.

That philosophy of spending time is silly. People play games to relax, which is not a waste of time at all. Human beings are not machines, and cannot be productive for every waking second. Nor should they be.

Nobody said Everquest was a way of life, or a religion. The simple truth is all video games are based on concrete rules and maths. The races and classes were made asymmetrically, which means there is an objective best race/class combination for each class. Knowledge is power. It is good to know what the best is, and by how much. This is because Everquest is the type of game where most people only make one character per class. It takes too much time, money, and effort to make multiple levels 60s of the same class for specific purposes. There is no religious fervor here when I say Ogres are objectively the best. I am simply analyzing the facts and coming to a conclusion. I would be happy to be proven wrong if you can bring something to the table[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nobody here has claimed that you cannot prefer Trolls over other races. Your preference is not a fact that proves Trolls are objectively better, however. Please just say it is you opinion, instead of looking like you want a discussion, or have your questions answered. That is wasting peoples time, because they take their time to respond to you, but you don't actually want a response. Your point that "this is just a game" was not clearly stated anywhere until this last post.

That philosophy of spending time is silly. People play games to relax, which is not a waste of time at all. Human beings are not machines, and cannot be productive for every waking second. Nor should they be.

Nobody said Everquest was a way of life, or a religion. The simple truth is all video games are based on concrete rules and maths. There is an objective best race/class combination for each class. Knowledge is power, and it is good to know what the best is, and by how much. This is because Everquest is the type of game where most people only make one character per class. It takes too much time, money, and effort to make multiple levels 60s for specific purposes. There is no religious fervor here when I say Ogres are objectively the best. I am simply analyzing the facts and coming to a conclusion. I would be happy to be proven wrong if you can bring something to the table[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

These racial debates exist because there really is not an objective best race/class combination for every single class, especially shaman. There are a lot of grey areas, highly based on which situation you're in. Until you can prove that in every possible scenario an Ogre is superior, which clearly in your guide that's not the case, this debate will continue to go on. Unlike an iksar monk, or barbarian rogue, the shaman race debate will never end because of how diverse the racial advantages are.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

These racial debates exist because there really is not an objective best race/class combination for every single class, especially shaman. There are a lot of grey areas, highly based on which situation you're in. Until you can prove that in every possible scenario an Ogre is superior, which clearly in your guide that's not the case, this debate will continue to go on. Unlike an iksar monk, or barbarian rogue, the shaman race debate will never end because of how diverse the racial advantages are.

You do not need to prove a race/class combination is better in every possible scenario. Everquest is too long of a game for people to make 4 Torpor Shamans, one of each race, to cover every scenario. That means the "best" race/class combination is the one that wins in the majority of scenarios. I have never claimed other races cannot be better in specific scenarios, and my guide shows you where those scenarios occur[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

EDIT: Your argument falls flat when you claim Iksar Monks are objectively the best, because there are fringe cases where Human Monks are superior. Human monks have the best fist ratio, a smaller experience penalty, and better faction, for example. But Iksars are the "best" because they are better most of the time[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You do not need to prove a race/class combination is better in every possible scenario. Everquest is too long of a game for people to make 4 Torpor Shamans, one of each race, to cover every scenario. That means the "best" race/class combination is the one that wins the the majority of scenarios. I have never claimed other races cannot be better in specific scenarios, and my guide shows you where those scenarios occur[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I never said you claimed ogres are the best in all scenarios. I’m saying the fact that you can’t claim they are the best in all scenarios means there is no best shaman race. Your guide is great for highlighting the different scenarios and letting people decide which race is the best.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You do not need to prove a race/class combination is better in every possible scenario. Everquest is too long of a game for people to make 4 Torpor Shamans, one of each race, to cover every scenario. That means the "best" race/class combination is the one that wins in the majority of scenarios. I have never claimed other races cannot be better in specific scenarios, and my guide shows you where those scenarios occur[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

EDIT: Your argument falls flat when you claim Iksar Monks are objectively the best, because there are fringe cases where Human Monks are superior. Human monks have the best fist ratio, a smaller experience penalty, and better faction, for example. But Iksars are the "best" because they are better most of the time[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Best means best at being able to perform the duties of your class in any given scenario. None of those human monk abilities have anything to do with being a better monk at the end state of velious. Those are all quality of life, and the fist delay is irrelevant in velious. You cannot say the same for shaman, hence the heavily debated topic and why your guide is an excellent summary of the shaman racial advantages but not an objective proof to the overall best shaman race.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I never said you claimed ogres are the best in all scenarios. I’m saying the fact that you can’t claim they are the best in all scenarios means there is no best shaman race. Your guide is great for highlighting the different scenarios and letting people decide which race is the best.

That is silly. If your stance is the "best" race/class combination must be superior in every single scenario, there is no best race/class combination for any race or class. That is an extreme position to take, and every race/class combination can be superior to another in a specific scenario.

This obviously isn't your real stance either, because you seem to claim it is obvious an iksar monk is the best, when there are obvious cases where Human monks are superior. Human monks have better starting faction, a smaller xp penalty, and the best fist damage ratio. How can you claim Iksar Monks are obviously the best with these oustanding scenarios?[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is silly. If your stance is the "best" race/class combination must be superior in every single scenario, there is no best race/class combination for any race or class. That is an extreme position to take, and every race/class combination can be superior to another in a specific scenario.

This obviously isn't your real stance either, because you seem to claim it is obvious an iksar monk is the best, when there are obvious cases where Human monks are superior. Human monks have better starting faction, a smaller xp penalty, and the best fist damage ratio. How can you claim Iksar Monks are obviously the best with these oustanding scenarios?[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

See my previous post, you’re outlining human monk quality of life features, just like fashion, totally different discussion [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Danth]

You do gloss over duo/group content at level 60 somewhat, though perhaps not unfairly. How do I mean? Let's put it this way: If some shaman with a partner kills a named as a duo within the ~6 minute duration of Turgur's then you're looking at a maximum of maybe 500 HP of extra healing from racial regeneration that the shaman wouldn't otherwise have, and in real world practice rather less than that. Troll or iksar is inarguably "better" in such a case than an ogre who isn't being hit but the victory rings rather hollow. Sure you could add those types of disclaimers to your guide but why would you want to do that when it's long enough already? After all it's a wiki article, not a book.

I still regard troll as the min-max choice for general use, but not because I disagree with any of your data. I rather like the data, actually. Rather I weigh some factors differently. For example I place more emphasis on the reality that the majority of characters created on P1999 never make it to level 60 at all. That is a difference of priority, not of fact. I see your side of it too, hence why I've said several times in this thread that I like your guide regardless of that type of differing opinion.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Best means best at being able to perform the duties of your class in any given scenario. None of those human monk abilities have anything to do with being a better monk at the end state of velious. Those are all quality of life, and the fist delay is irrelevant in velious. You cannot say the same for shaman, hence the heavily debated topic and why your guide is an excellent summary of the shaman racial advantages but not an objective proof to the overall best shaman race.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

See my previous post, you’re outlining human monk quality of life features, just like fashion, totally different discussion [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You keep moving the goal posts. In your previous posts you said "scenarios", and you did not specify what kind.

If your definition of "scenarios" is end game Velious content, you are shooting yourself in the foot. All racial bonuses become "quality of life" features when you are in a group or a raid dealing with end game Velious content. Again your argument goes back to the extreme position of "there is no best race", which is false. Any asymmetrical game has a best. I have never claimed the "best" is far ahead, but that doesn't mean it does not exist.