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  #151  
Old 06-01-2011, 01:44 PM
Aadill Aadill is offline
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Here's what happens in the current raiding scene:

1) A mob spawns on a variance, unbeknownst to ANYONE except first and foremost to any trackers in the zone.

2) A mass communication is sent out to the guilds that have trackers in the zone that are aware of the event

3) Each guild that received the call mobilizes from any and every zone because they were doing other things, which in Kunark generally requires mobilization from multiple zones in multiple fashions whether it be OT hammers, evacs from dungeons, etc.

4) Those guilds buff and wait for a reasonable number of players and start pulling trash or engage the mob either by pulling to their raid or sending in the tank. USUALLY this results in all but one guild being caught off guard, so there are no FTE issues.

5) The mob dies.

6) The guild moves to a mobilization spot, continues about their business, or passes out loot.


Under a no-variance solution:

1) A mob spawns at a known time due to any and all guilds that were previously in the zone watching the last time it was killed are aware of it (which unless trackers are still being utilized will not result in any gain on the part of any guild not currently tracking).

2) Prior to this spawn event, a mass communication is made well in advance for every knowledgeable guild to simply move to a zone and buff/camp out and log back in just minutes prior to it's spawn.

3) Upon spawn every and all guilds who were aware of the spawn will attempt to receive FTE and will either KS the mob and take the loot (GM intervention) or /petition to have the loot returned to them because they feel they were FTE (also GM intervention)

4) The mob dies or wipes the first raid force.

5) The loot is passed out and guilds go about their business/move to the next known spawn.


In your concept I fail to see how poopsocking was reduced. Most importantly, however, would be that MORE GM intervention is required. In the current state the entire spawn is a surprise and therefore causes guilds to have to genuinely race for a mob instead of pre-mobilizing. THAT is the competition that the top tier guilds are vying for because as of right now we're all aware of how much hp the mobs have, the spells they cast, the resist they need, etc.; "Save 150 on poison, start the CH chain and throw in the tanks and we'll be good to go!"

The result? Multiple guilds being ready, chomping at the bit to hit target nearest mob and throwing a javelin or shooting an arrow at the mob, hoping to get FTE.

I don't see how that is any more related to skill because no effort is involved on the guild as a whole. As of right now, the moment a mob spawns the guilds have to put forth their best efforts to get there first and engage. NO raid mob is going to sit up for more than a few minutes unless it's in Sky, so you're going to have to be there before it spawns. Yes, the current raiding guilds do agree on this and that is because we KNOW we are going to go for the mob in any means possible. Nedala and Shiftin represent the same angle: no one is currently poopsocking to any large degree and each mob is a race because we now have old world and Kunark raid mobs to mobilize for - too many targets to poopsock.


Would it be nice to shorten the windows? Hell yes! With enough targets after the expansion it would be the best choice made by the player base and GMs. Poopsocking may go up a little but GM intervention will still be minimal. As a bonus, trackers wouldn't have to track as long and could go about their business instead of staying home from work, not playing for days, eating bags of Funyuns, or whathaveyou. As of right now, everyone that is attempting the challenge of killing a raid mob is doing so and following the rules. Anyone not attempting within the bounds of the rules, which are pretty freeform, do not like the variance. My personal opinion is that I enjoy the variance but wish it was shorter. Rotations would be too easy and no variance would be horrid.

Shiftin mentions some variance always existed for old world stuff. Was that added when old world dragons went to 52 and below only? Maybe that can be implemented~

Furthermore, the mentions of Velious are way off and any guild attempting those areas will be well aware of how difficult it is. The GMs are also well aware of this and will probably go to great lengths to make sure that the experience is as normalized as it can be. How? Simple player made rule just as it was on live: Kill the first dragon and get the rest - no variance on the rest of the mobs.


Second edit: Skope: Instead of having me PM you, just post your thoughts, as that is the point of this thread that has popped up so many times before.

Third edit: Skope: I'm also not disagreeing with you that variance isn't classic, but the alternative that you present doesn't sit well with one of the very people that sits in a zone for 4 to 12 hours a day on a tracking shift.
Last edited by Aadill; 06-01-2011 at 01:55 PM..
  #152  
Old 06-01-2011, 01:50 PM
Rejuvenation Rejuvenation is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
for those accusing me of bias or an agenda...

This is taken directly from the divinity members forums. My post in response to a guildie.

juju, you're under the assumption it would stay the same rules we have now but no variance. This assumption doesn't make sense. Furthermore, so what? even if it comes down to KSing or FTE or even rotation, i would rather all of these things than wait 4 days for a mob to spawn. It's not classic... the single rule that governed the entire direction of this server somehow doesn't apply now? what?

Things worked themselves out on live. Guilds got bigger and badder and others fell apart. It's already happened here. We're still here. We're not going anywhere, regardless of variance or not.

But, most importantly, I'm not doing this as a divinity agenda. How many more/less targets we'll get has absolutely zero bearing on why i'm trying to push this. I'm doing it because I think it's fucking stupid and it's wrong.


EDIT: for those that know me know that this isn't something new. But to come to the table or even disagree with me you'd have to be willing to do the same, and to be quite frank there's only a handful of people in the bigger guilds that would do just as i am willing to do.
I like this juju guy...He's got style.
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  #153  
Old 06-01-2011, 01:50 PM
Humwawa Humwawa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
That's where actual raid and server rules come in.
I respect this idea a lot. I don't see it working with the current high end climate, without GM intercession, but I'd love to see someone with enough charisma and political push attempt it.

It would take a lot more effort and time than tracking Vox for eight hours with an audio trigger.
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  #154  
Old 06-01-2011, 01:52 PM
Skope Skope is offline
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Aadill, you're doing the same thing Humwawa was: a strawman argument.

Dumping variance, as i noted on the previous page, raises other issues. Assuming FTE with no changes minus variance, though, is your own issue that you've just created. It requires rewriting it all and starting from a blank slate. Your scenario is just one in a dozen of scenarios that played themselves out daily on live servers.

Furthermore, your own proposal of lessening the windows creates much the same problem -- clusterfuck(s). That one wasn't so implausible was it? But think about it further and you'll realize that many of them face much the same issue.

There are ways to reduce GM involvement while keeping it strictly, or as close to, classic as we possibly can. The guilds willing to wake up at 3am will always get more targets. The guilds that wipe will lose their shots. There will still be tiered progression. Wake up people.
  #155  
Old 06-01-2011, 01:59 PM
Dr4z3r Dr4z3r is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Variance is independent of FTE. Variance, originally, was introduced to discourage poopsocking and it flat out didn't work.
This is not correct. It DID work. There is less of both poopsocking and GM's intervening on raids as a result of variance being introduced.

Skope, you're arguing in circles: You say variance is bad, someone else says how bad an alternative would be, and then you say "if you want to know what my alternative would be, PM me," and go back to saying "it's bad & not classic, so get rid of it."

There are two ways out of this circle: either stop posting, or write out your actual alternative proposal so that people can take a look at it. Or both! You can stop posting here, and start writing up a legitimate proposal to be submitted privately to Nilbog or whoever for evaluation as an alternative to the current system. That way you don't have to deal with the oh-so-villainous TR members straw-manning you and defending your monopoly - it can be nice & quiet.
  #156  
Old 06-01-2011, 02:03 PM
Aadill Aadill is offline
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I'm in Ascension and agree with Shiftin, Nedala, and Humwawa.
  #157  
Old 06-01-2011, 02:04 PM
Susanbanthony Susanbanthony is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aadill [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I'm in Ascension and agree with Shiftin, Nedala, and Humwawa.
  #158  
Old 06-01-2011, 02:05 PM
Asher Asher is offline
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Yes, Big Brother is required because P99 players are all babies and cannot resolve issues on their own. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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  #159  
Old 06-01-2011, 02:06 PM
Skope Skope is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr4z3r [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
This is not correct. It DID work. There is less of both poopsocking and GM's intervening on raids as a result of variance being introduced.

Skope, you're arguing in circles: You say variance is bad, someone else says how bad an alternative would be, and then you say "if you want to know what my alternative would be, PM me," and go back to saying "it's bad & not classic, so get rid of it."

There are two ways out of this circle: either stop posting, or write out your actual alternative proposal so that people can take a look at it. Or both! You can stop posting here, and start writing up a legitimate proposal to be submitted privately to Nilbog or whoever for evaluation as an alternative to the current system. That way you don't have to deal with the oh-so-villainous TR members straw-manning you and defending your monopoly - it can be nice & quiet.
No, it didn't work. Those of us who played here last summer can vouch for this personally -- especially those in DA and IB. There was no FTE then, it was first come first serve. The only mobilization that occurred during that entire summer and part of that spring was racing to the next poopsock spot. Poopsock wasn't a valid raid technique, it was a large loophole that variance couldn't cover up.

And I'm not going to post any of my alternatives here. But i will say what's been posted, including crazy-FTE by aadill, rotation by others, are options that I'd never favor.

Anything that I would propose would go straight to nilbog/rogean or be open for discussion between those deemed worthy of it. Unfortunately, the mere nature of the p99 forums often tanks any idea of fruitful conversation down the fucking toilet.
  #160  
Old 06-01-2011, 02:09 PM
Humwawa Humwawa is offline
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Skope, sir - I see nothing wrong with a variance on raid mobs to prohibit poopsocking, regardless of it being "true to classic" or not. I see nothing wrong with a variance now, or in the future.

Your argument is based on your belief that variance is contrary to classic experience, and that a staggered boss spawn time will conflict with Velious content for some reason. I don't believe it will. Where's the legendary, oft-referenced Strawman here?

I was in DA during the legendary poopsocking Summer. It was the inverse of competition - you raced to the mob, except the mob wasn't up yet. Still racing, but with an added 48 hours of bullshit.

This will happen again without a variance, and it will take some great diplomacy to even approach a player-controlled solution without needless, and still-present animosity.

It would take, in short, a massive amount of time and effort on the part of a few, in order to organize a system for the many. An amount of time it seems many, many posters believe shouldn't be invested in a video game, anyway.
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Last edited by Humwawa; 06-01-2011 at 02:14 PM..
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