Mage pet chain summoning on Blue is broken

[Rygar]

The printed guide was notorious for wrong information. I haven't researched this one way or another, but would never call the printed strategy guide as "definitive proof"

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The printed guide was notorious for wrong information. I haven't researched this one way or another, but would never call the printed strategy guide as "definitive proof"

True, but ... this isn't the guide saying "here's how the dex calculation works", or anything of that nature. We can both agree it was, infamously, very bad at that sort of thing. This is literally just describing gameplay.

It might be describing something from classic that got changed in Kunark (or maybe even something from beta?). But as far as I know, even the Prima guides never flat-out made up false descriptions of gameplay, so presumably this is how things worked ... at least at one point on live.

Surely if you (or another classic researcher; I would, but I'm terrible at it) did some digging, you could find some better evidence if that was the case.

[Rygar]

Describing gameplay..? Saying "mob will run at you, pet will get it" is very loose.

Someone was saying hate shouldn't transfer, then why run towards the mage at all? Who is to say pet isn't doing a successful taunt?

There is bound to be better evidence than this from player testimonials. Again, I dont know one way or the other, but I have learned not to trust that guide as a resource. I understand the temptation, I've probably quoted it before myself. But it's just hot garbage.

[Ruien]

Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Describing gameplay..? Saying "mob will run at you, pet will get it" is very loose.

Someone was saying hate shouldn't transfer, then why run towards the mage at all? Who is to say pet isn't doing a successful taunt?

There is bound to be better evidence than this from player testimonials. Again, I dont know one way or the other, but I have learned not to trust that guide as a resource. I understand the temptation, I've probably quoted it before myself. But it's just hot garbage.

For the purpose of demonstrating that pet chaining worked in-era on live, this guide is sufficient evidence.

Consider the opposite: If all of the hate transferred from pet to caster (as on p99 today), then the guide would have had to mention something like making sure you had a sow and running around in circles until the pet finally got it off you. Instead, the guide describes simply stepping away from the fight, casting a new pet, and engaging it on the oncoming mob. That's the strategy.

A good example of this logic is the "Root & Nuke" strategy. The guide would be remiss if it failed to mention that DD spells break root. So, how does it fare? It mentions exactly that: "Be ready to cast a root spell again, because assaulting a target with DD has been known to break the root spell".

Another example of this is fear kiting (called Reverse-Kiting in the guide). For this one, it suggests getting a sow as the first step of the strategy. Yes, it calls the strategy "advanced" while we would consider it basic. That is beside the point. The point is that the strategy as described generally works.

The comment about "why run towards the mage at all" seems out-of-place. A mob that was fighting a charmed pet when charm is broken will run at the the caster, too. This entire conversation is about the mage accumulating hate over successive pets to the point of making a well-known strategy like this one infeasible. If you try the strategy -- as described in the guide -- on p99, you will die. Therein lies the problem.

There's no reason to think a published guide less reliable than a random quote on a message board when it comes to which basic class strategies are being successfully employed.

[Rygar]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=361855

Some blurbs about how lame this strategy guide is. "Bards should not solo, but if you do, be sure to play a haste song".

Since this is a published guide after all we can take this as confirmation bard soloing on p99 should be limited to face tanking.

[mcoy]

Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

we can take this as confirmation bard soloing on p99 should be limited to face tanking.

Hey, if it stops the swarmers I'm all for it...

-Mcoy

[pasi]

Posted on this a few times in the last 14 years.

I believe it is an intentionally unclassic mechanic that pet hate transfers to owners. Though any hate from successfully summoning/casting a conjuration spell is not well documented, the existence of bard swarm (swarm kiting; not AE kiting) demonstrates a lack of pet hate transfer to the owner.

So, whats the problem? Well, it's mostly a problem for vanilla. The two "broken" strategies in Vanilla are 1) Pet spells being extremely powerful and efficient and 2) Long Duration Stuns (i.e whirl). Both of which were well known from classic emulators prior to P1999. Both of which were abused and gutted shortly into P1999's existence.

The 49 Magician Pets can have 3k unbuffed HP which mages can summon for 200 mana prior to any specialization checks. Even if instant reclaim energy clicks did not exist, "tanking" 3000+ HP for 200 mana while doing damage is insane efficiency for Vanilla. Prior to NPCs rampaging, if there's no significant AE or if it's able to be blocked (walls indoors, water, etc.) - there's minimal risk. You just need enough to outdps the NPC's natural regen. So, something like Nagafen is do-able with 3 50 mages (add a cleric for some margin of error for heal/camping). Since there no rez-recovery with pets, the show just goes on. Hypothetically, ~20 level 50 mages could tank Kerafyrm for an eternity.

With that said, I don't think it is a problematic mechanic for Velious. Though, eliminating pet-hate transfer mechanic would be an indirect buff to Enchanters and Bards.

[Dolalin]

Though any hate from successfully summoning/casting a conjuration spell is not well documented, the existence of bard swarm (swarm kiting; not AE kiting) demonstrates a lack of pet hate transfer to the owner.

Agreed. Pet hate transfer to owner was very low. I don't know how much exactly in number terms, but probably under 100 points or so, in line with what you'd get from body pulling.

[Jimjam]

IMO all the pets did was add the owner's name to the aggro list, I find it doubtful it even added hate at all.

[magnetaress]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

IMO all the pets did was add the owner's name to the aggro list, I find it doubtful it even added hate at all.

and &&& ^^^^^

I'm going to risk a ban here

the devs like enchanters (and bards) (because probably autistic, which is what it takes to be a halfway decent dev anyway) and hate mages and dont give a *STUFF* about whether its accurate aka CLASSIC or not

try takp

lol

cuz raids and DKP and guilds named kittens and riot and *stuff*

everyone knew this and its why the default EMU code didnt do it and why it had to be added to p99 as a "bugfeature".

It's vengeance because a group of mages killed a PoSky mob or phinny or something (when there are way less toxic ways to make players share loot like simply making mobs open tag and random loot to everyone engaged)

hth