Spells: Enchanter Mesmerize does mem wipe too frequently

[Daldaen]

Memblur chance felt broken back when I played which is why I made that post 4 years ago. It sounds like it still is. However what I posted in that thread was accurate for PoP era and short any more substantial evidence of a chance, that is how it should function on P99.

A much more substantial issue however is that the memblur component from a mez spell should only trigger when the spell initially lands. Refreshing mez on a target should not trigger the memblur component again. You need to either wait for the mez to wear off and then recast the mez or you need to overwrite that mez with another mez spell (IE Mesmerize for Dazzle). But that brings up another long standing issue with enchanter mesmerize spell overwriting not functioning properly on P99.

[Dolalin]

Okay I don't feel like weighing the truth of this claim right now, but it was easy enough to pull some threads about mez/mem-blur from the eq-archives, so here they are.

1. October 2000 thread from castersrealm forums, pretty good comments about effectiveness:

https://web.archive.org/web/20001211...ML/000811.html

2. June 2002 thread from castersrealm forums, a little out of era but still worth a read, mentions an 'upgrade patch' that might be worth nailing down, probably in Luclin if I had to guess:

https://forums.crgaming.com/cgi-bin/...c&f=9&t=007423

3. Nov 2003 thread from therunes.net (enchanter class site), touches on the 1% issue and it maybe not being totally accurate, pretty far out of era though, idk:

https://web.archive.org/web/20040104...php?p=9731&amp

4. Jan 2004 thread on Castersrealm, along with #1 it mentions that a chanter refreshing mez will never get a blur chance on a refresh of the mez, only if mez is not already active on the mob, also applies for other enchanters trying to refresh a mez. Again, rather far out of era though:

https://web.archive.org/web/20041107...p?p=861536&amp

5. This eqenchanters mailing list post from March 2000 says the following:

Hey Horchata, enthrall is a good spell, (entrance is better)
and yes it does have the properties of a memblur, but its not %100.
I thought they nerfed mesmerize way back level 30 mobs kept attacking after
i mesd them. Its because the higher level they are above the spell level,
the more chance they resist the memblur part. Anyway when fighting level
35-53 mobs

youll find the mes series doesnt quite wipe the hate list, and will find
yourself attacked very often. Memblur isnt %100 either but its chance for
success are much higher. If a mob is in combat how do you wipe its hate if
it aggros you or a caster? Enthrall may only make it angry with you.

https://github.com/dbsanfte/eq-archi...html/2440.html

6. CastersRealm forums thread from June 2002 that is pretty detailed and has logs of tests comparing mem blurs and mez/enthrall etc, defo worth a read:

https://web.archive.org/web/20020718...c&f=9&t=007338

7. CastersRealm forums thread from November 1999 talking about mez and blur chances:

https://web.archive.org/web/20000606...ML/000002.html

8. Everlore page for Memory Blur, in era, but not much here, typical low-quality Everlore page.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010714...ory+Blur&type=

[Dolalin]

From alt.games.everquest:

1. Thread from April 2000 discussing mem blur on mes:

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.game...m/WBo1eHiX-roJ

2. Another one from June 2000 by the same ench that goes into some more detail:

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.game...m/Ra2vvSHE-o0J

3. This is an "enchanters nerf list" from Feb 2000 and claims chance to mem blur on mes was reduced, not sure about timelines or veracity:

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.game...m/cIxhxuPKEk8J

[Dolalin]

Possible that more things will pop up in the eq-archives index (still 3 million files to go...), but it's gonna be another month or two till it's done.

[Gustoo]

Good research. Obviously a problem with current mechanic. I really love these threads not to nerf characters but to just dig up the classic deets.

[Gustoo]

Can we make enchanter nerf changes after red 2.0 comes out so I can PL with an enchy buddy first?

[azxten]

Thanks Dolalin. A list of those resources and how to search would be great. The most interesting thing I saw so far in your links is that mem blur as an effect seems to have more nuance than it does on P99.

A "mem blur" apparently has two components. One is the reset of all damage done to the mob but no change to the aggro list itself. The other is the actual change to the aggro list which is apparently random in terms of how many people it removes and who it removes. Ranging from a complete wipe of all aggro to wipe of a single person which may not even be the caster.

There is a lot of discussion about how many times to cast mez or mem blur to be sure aggro was wiped. There is no mention of using the level 4 mez to mem blur mobs. It's like using Enthrall twice or Mez + Mem Blur + Mem Blur and so on. Lots of discussion about the best way to ensure you wiped aggro and none of them involve casting one spell let alone the level 4 one.

Tons to read there but so far it's pretty obvious P99 is a shell of how this worked on live and it's OP in the current state. Most of it reads similar to my feelings on charm and channeling. The mechanic is similar to live but it works way too well at lower levels. It's like the emulator team figured out how mez seemed to work in general for a spell like Enthrall or Dazzle and then made that the base mez function ignoring that the level 4 spell didn't work that way.

[azxten]

So far I see...

1. Mem blur always resets damage if successful but randomly removes from the aggro list from all to none as a separate effect.
2. Mez will never mem blur on a recast.
3. Possibly once a mob is mezzed no change will occur to it's aggro list until it has broken mez or been casted on. No social aggro, etc until mez breaks.

October 30, 2000 12:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gemen Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote I recently did a test on this one myself, while hunting those rabid Spirocs in Timorous Deep. I had the level 4 Mesmerize and the level 34 Entrance spells. I'd just tashania one of the buggers, run a ways, and mez it with Entrance first. (This was before I became KOS with 'em, btw.) In the 4-5 nukes it took me to take one down, I never noticed a /con change with each entrance. Next I tried mesmerize, and easily 50%-75% of the time, the /con message changed back to the original, on 33-40+ mobs. So far as I can tell, as was earlier stated, that the longer the mez lasts, the less of a chance it has to blur. I suppose this is why I always thought Enthrall was broken, when it would almost never blur aviak guards in Lake Rathe, when Mesmerize would blur stuff all the time before then.

October 16, 2000 08:50 AM All of the mesmerize spells have a memory blur component, but past the low levels, it's extremely rare for the blur to actually work.

Feb 2000 nerf list

- Memory Blur Level Capped 35+ mobs/ Memory Blur
Chance with Mes Series Reduced

More proof Enchanter pet HP was laughably low as proven already:

Now as for our pets, in ALOT of cases they are a liability more than a
tool. Their damage output is only moderate and their HPs and AC are a
joke.

There is a bit of a timeline established there. Someone did "recent testing" posting Oct 30th saying the level 4 mez spell was blurring TD Spirocs ~50-75% of the time but Entrance never blurred. This supports the current P99 mechanic somewhat. Possibly Spirocs are higher leveling resulting in the lower success rate compared to the log I posted of level 25-30 mobs having ~100% success to blur.

Mem blur is capped for 35+ mobs and mem blure chance on the mes series is reduced from this nerf list presented Feb 2000.

It seems like mes did work similar in live to P99 but it was nerfed during classic and well before Kunark. One of the many broken functions of true classic. On that list it also mentions that you could do DOT damage to a mezzed mob and it wouldn't break. They mention having to "choose" now between dot or mez. Sounds like a lot of these were unintended effects the devs worked to fix after release.

I'd really like to hear more about that mem blur cap to 35+ if that is what they're saying. No mobs should be mem blurred if they're high level?

Oh ya, and where are all these enchanted items we were 'supposed' to be
able to make ??? Enchanters seem to be the most overlooked class in the
game .. maybe that's why there's so few of us ? I've been doing player
counts lately and found that the ONLY class that is less popular than
Enchanters is Shadow Knights .. even the rogues have us out-numbered =(

When's the last time the Enchanter was given an upgrade or had a spell
made more effective ?? (I'm not talking about the ability to make a
useless vial of mana either)

From least played class in live to most played on P99? I wonder why...

Enchanter was a broken as fuck completely shit on class in real classic and wasn't made viable other than being a buff bot and doing group mezzes which frequently resulted in death from aggro until Velious. They made a vision of this class and quickly realized it was overpowered. Nerfed it down and forgot about it. We know from past threads Charm was so broken in various ways as to usually result in dying from bugs. Prove me wrong.

Ha ha! I can't tell you how many times I have had to sit down in
the middle of a horde to memorize Mesmerization FAST while the
tanks keep everything taunted off of me. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Nowadays I keep it
ready, even if I can't really cast it because of the LOS bugs,
because it is still the group's "Get out of jail free" card. We
rarely have anyone who can evac.

Enchanters didn't even mem mez normally it was so buggy. Amazing. Multiple people mention not memming it and having to quickly mem during a pull and risk its various horrible aspects.

No kidding. If you catch yourself with your Mesmerization, you are
going to fall down dead in approximately 24.5 seconds, and the rest
of your party will soon follow.

The spells through the wall bug is a killer. Any AE spell, like
Mesmerization, is going to wake up whatever is above you, below
you or through the wall. I wish Verant would fix that so that if
you can't see it or affect it, it doesn't notice the spell.

AE Mez ignored Z axis and walls. Apparently was also extremely high aggro if resisted.

Enchanter is so OP on P99. Fascinating reads here.

[DMN]

Here is how mez/hate wiping spells worked.

At low levels they both worked at near 100%(95% as the devs liked the D&D system of always having at least 5% failure no matter what). Around mob level 30(im not 100% sure here but I'd guess it was around 30 were it started to become notable) the mez line started to slowly have its mem wipe component reduced. Memory blur (level 12 spell)still retained the near 100% memory blur chances for awhile even after the mez-blur chances were significantly reduced, so it did indeed have better memory blur but it just wasn't noticeable at low levels.

Because of the level scaling the people posting stuff in the forums of that time period may have completely different and "true" vies about how the spells worked,

[DMN]

You have to very careful when reading these old forum pots by people, doesn't matter the class or time period. Back then, the players were actively lobbying verant to nerf other classes and buff their own. That's hidden under the majority yo "this sucks" and "this is overpowered" type posts.


As far as enchanter in particular they are even more problematic. The way the class/abilities worked was complicated and especially complicated back then when the vast majority of players understood little of the mechanics. But more complicated yet in that the class was majorly revamped/changed all thought the first year. Many of the changes never made the patch list.

1. Most class/ability/spell sucks/overpower are essentially people lobbying verant to nerf/buff things, not actually accurate assessment of the class/ability/spell. it was well beyond the scope of typical grass greener behavior as they actually believed, perhaps corrrectly that by crying enough they could accomplish their agenda which was usually getting their own class buffed and other(s) nerfed.

2. Enchanter had a lot of issues when it was first released, as it was the last class added to EQ. It was virtually unplayed in the open beta and didn't exist in the closed beta until they very end.

3. Because of its rough state, it got a bad rep for "being bad" early on. This became a self fulfilling prophecy in some regards, and generally drove people away from playing it even more. "A bad workman always blames his tools".

4. It was considered a purely grouping class, similar to cleric. So many of the people inclined to play them naturally preferred to sit in a group in a supporting role. More importantly, none of them picked enchanter to push the envelope of soloing or duo type situations using the animations or charms. This meant that 99% of enchanter sit in groups with no charm, no animation, they purely buffed/mez'd for CC, and occasionally debuffed and generally had little graps on how anything worked outside of these parameters of play, and even then, as mentioned above because of the quirks of level scaling altering power effectiveness it would give an even more confused picture of what was going on.

A great encapsulation of all of this is seen on the "enchanter nerf list" link that Dolalin gave. He of course wants enchanters buffed, so the strategy is to make them look as weak as possible. He lists, for instance, that DD spells becoming partially resistant was actually a nerf, when in fact that was a huge buff -- particularly to soloing enchanters, and virtually irrelevant to grouping. He's either intentionally lying to hopefully gain a buff for his class, or he was simply completely ignorant of enchanter solo play.