Monk FD mechanics not classic?

[Red_Messiah]

Originally Posted by Ikon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Theres lots of evidence -

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/FD.php
http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/FDnerf.php
http://youngsdojo.tripod.com/Pulling.html

That was one google search with links from first page

First link mentions repeatedly FD'ing (dozen times) to separate a dragon from its guards
Second one mentions having at /q which was common when aggro refused to drop
Third one explains exactly the tactics required - tactics which would not need to exist if you could simply lose aggro by sneaking after FD

imo if you want a Velious era EQ museum it starts with the Velious discs, the Velious UI and Velious mechanics....anything short of Velious era stuff is close but not perfect. Monk FD mechanics are one of those imperfections, among others.

Dont forget there's nerds using GINA and other dubious programs on the side, as well as a wiki and 3rd party auction sites.

[paulgiamatti]

Originally Posted by jolanar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So better to just make something up brand new instead of making it how everyone remembers it when there is no 'evidence'?

That makes no sense.

I mean, again, there's this misconception that when P99 developers change and implement something they just wipe the slate clean and design something new from scratch - that's not how it works. They're working with the EQEmu source for server-side mechanics, and they're restricted by what the EverQuest Titanium client will allow for the end user. Both of these things are a far cry from classic without altering code. The current implementation of P99 FD mechanics is not the product of P99 devs going, "I believe FD should work specifically like this!" and then implementing it. It's a result of altering the EQEmu source in order to make those mechanics behave in a way that is, for better or for worse, more classic than they originally were.

So if it's currently obscenely unclassic and not at all representative of what people remember, that's because of how even more obscenely unclassic it was originally, not because the P99 devs concocted some obscenely unclassic idea for FD mechanics and then ran with it.

[fastboy21]

I've never really weighed in on this (it isn't a new topic, its been brought up many times before) because I didn't play a monk on live so I have very very few first hand anecdotes on how stuff worked, much less how they worked from era to era.

The mechanics do seem less than classic on p99 for FD splitting. Its not really about the devs getting it wrong, I think they just never got around to fixing it significantly from the way it was on EMU.

The problem isn't so much that its broken. It works reliably and lets folks play EQ without disrupting the classic feel totally. The real issue I have with it is that it makes pulling way too easy.

Monks don't really do very much in EQ. They are DPS machines and Pullers. On P99, due to the sneak pulling etc., even a stupid bad monk makes the best monks from live look like an amateur.

It actually only bothers me when I play my p99 monk because I dislike seeing so many people playing monks that know nothing about real tricks to splitting mobs up. Most players who mained monks on live (who were good) made an art out of pulling. It took time to learn the intricacies of each camp. The type of mobs, the respawn times, the map, the various geometries you could use to snag mobs on, the pathing, the bugs to the pathing. It created enough problems that there was a BIG difference between a truly game knowledgeable monk and someone helplessly spamming their FD key. Here if you can hit FD and sneak you can pull just about anything like a pro.

[Baler]

Shit's not Classic.

Players and guilds have been abusing this fact on p99 and making huge pixel gains (plat and items) for years because of it.

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[Llodd]

Lazy agro( monk talks about it in the 3rd link from ikon's post)

Would be awesome if they implemented this. I remember it from live but I don't remember what sort of range it had but that one thing alone could really change the dynamics in the raid scene in particular here on p99.

[EQBallzz]

Originally Posted by fastboy21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've never really weighed in on this (it isn't a new topic, its been brought up many times before) because I didn't play a monk on live so I have very very few first hand anecdotes on how stuff worked, much less how they worked from era to era.

The mechanics do seem less than classic on p99 for FD splitting. Its not really about the devs getting it wrong, I think they just never got around to fixing it significantly from the way it was on EMU.

The problem isn't so much that its broken. It works reliably and lets folks play EQ without disrupting the classic feel totally. The real issue I have with it is that it makes pulling way too easy.

Monks don't really do very much in EQ. They are DPS machines and Pullers. On P99, due to the sneak pulling etc., even a stupid bad monk makes the best monks from live look like an amateur.

It actually only bothers me when I play my p99 monk because I dislike seeing so many people playing monks that know nothing about real tricks to splitting mobs up. Most players who mained monks on live (who were good) made an art out of pulling. It took time to learn the intricacies of each camp. The type of mobs, the respawn times, the map, the various geometries you could use to snag mobs on, the pathing, the bugs to the pathing. It created enough problems that there was a BIG difference between a truly game knowledgeable monk and someone helplessly spamming their FD key. Here if you can hit FD and sneak you can pull just about anything like a pro.

I don't disagree with your thoughts about live monks probably being better and requiring more skill to perfect the art of pulling. There were truly some badass monks on live.

Sadly, even if it is easier on P99 that hasn't stopped many monks from being pretty bad here. Let me preface this by saying I don't consider myself an expert puller on my monk but I have been grouped with more than a couple truly terrible monks here. Monks that loot everything in sight and are encumbered while pulling/tanking. Monks that have no inkling of how to split or use FD. Monks that FD once on a group of mobs and when it fails they train the group anyway because they don't want to die. Monks that don't understand how spells interrupt FD if not timed properly. I have even seen a couple monks that think splitting means pulling a group of mobs to the feet of the group and hitting FD..then jumping up and somehow expecting that is going to split the mobs instead of training the group. It's painful to watch.

[Lemonhead]

Also, as far as finding direct evidence for this mechanic, it is difficult to impossible to directly prove something does not exist. That is why it is always on the side to prove something does exist, in a logical world at least (ie science, law).

[Ikon]

Originally Posted by Lemonhead [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also, as far as finding direct evidence for this mechanic, it is difficult to impossible to directly prove something does not exist. That is why it is always on the side to prove something does exist, in a logical world at least (ie science, law).

The quote below is pretty much direct evidence that sneak didn't blur mobs:

35th+ level mobs don't always clear your name on the taunt list when you FD. One way to double check if they are headed back after you (and you can not actually see them behind a wall or such) you can press the sneak button before you get up, when you get up, do a "c"on to see if they are indifferent. If they have their back toward you and had a sucessful FD blur, and they con indifferent, you know that guy fell for it!

Basically what he's saying is if the FD memblur worked they'll be indifferent but if it didn't work they won't even with your sneak on while FD.

Its an interesting thread to read regarding the topic and this thread is from Jan 2001, a little over a month after Velious released.

http://www.monkly-business.net/forum...ill-tips-Sneak

Autumn, what he said was sneak, then stand up from the feign and con the mob going back. If it's indiff, it memblurred. If it glares/scowls (assuming it's not an always scowls mob), it's time to hit the dirt.



I use this all the time. The sneak isn't memblurring you, the sneak is checking if you memblurred.



On lvl31- mobs (It's 32+ that don't always memblur, not 35), you can sneak and stand up as soon as they turn around to go back, saving you a little time.

So apparently, the current FD / Sneak ONLY ever worked on lower then 32 level mobs.

Think about it this way. Say you are pulling something through all the twists and turns of Guk and have to feign it. Well once it starts going back to its spawn point/wandering path it will get out of visual range. To test to see if it is memblurred if you stand and sneak, chances are you are behind the mob still, So if its memblurred, and you stand up sneaking it should con indifferent.



IF you stand up sneaking, and it scowls:



1) Its still aggro'd on you, and its coming back to beat the living snot out of you.



OR



2) Its facing you and has been blurred.



At least that is my take on the tactic.

[Ikon]

One More:

What this means for you is that when a mob has you on the hate list, they'll be scowls at your or threateningly, even while sneaking.



So when you FD and the mobs wander off, hit your sneak button. Then when you stand up con the mob, if it's indiff faction then you're not on his hate list. If it's scowls/threateningly then FD immediately, he'll still be running back.



In my experiences I've found that it works best after you FD, to FD 3 or 4 more times, whether or not you feel like hitting sneak during these is up to you, but re-sneak right before standing up. It seems to work best that way.

Think that pretty much nails its as regards evidence.

Conclusion:

Likely people got confused and remembered that you could FD -> Sneak - 100% clear aggro on level 32 and below mobs, mistakenly thinking that sneak was 100% clearing aggro when in fact FD on mobs 32 and below was 100% clearing aggro and sneak was doing nothing.

Any mob over 32 doesn't have 100% mem-blur after FD and so shite should be aggroing back on a sneaking monk if FD memblur didn't work. If that wasn't the case the above quotes would clearly not exist.