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Originally Posted by Sabin76
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Ok, I think I'm getting a clearer picture both of what the "official rules" are and how those morphed into what we now (supposedly) see at these uberpopular camps. Please correct me if I'm wrong:
1. Alice is camping Mob. Bob, Candice, and Dylan all come to the camp in that order asking if there is a list/to be put on it. Since Bob asked first, and no one else had asked before, Alice says he is next. Both Candice and Dylan are told that Bob is next as well, with no other information given.
2. Once Alice is done, she informs Bob that it's his camp now. At this point, both Candice and Dylan have to ask Bob who is "next" and whoever asks Bob first gets it. While they could have asked Bob before it was his turn (thus entering into an agreement in which a violation would be considered fraud, I assume), Bob was under no obligation to make such an agreement since he wasn't the camp holder at the time. Perhaps Bob wanted to hand it off to his friend, or a guildie, or someone who offered him 5kp to be "next" after him. Who knows. Well, Candice and Dylan will know once it becomes Bob's camp because he has to divulge that information... anyway.
3. While Bob is camping Candice goes off and does some XPing in a neighboring zone (might ruffle some feathers, but I don't see anything prohibiting it as long as she can make it to the camp before the PH pops), Dylan sits there, and Excelsior, Frogo, and Garelt come to ask who's next. Assuming Bob has offered to hand it off to Candice, Bob tells them all that it's Candice. Garelt was the last to show up, but he offers 5kp to be next after her. As before, Candice doesn't have to make a decision now and can wait until she has the camp... or she can make a decision now and it's locked in stone as a "player agreement". Let's say she accepts.
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This is all a reasonable interpretation ... but no one knows for sure until these scenarios happen. There's nothing explicitly saying it all works like that.
Also just to clarify, the term "player agreement" is usually not used for "Bob and I made an agreement" (even though such agreements
are generally protected by fraud rules, unless multi-quests are involved). Instead. that specific term usually refers to places in the game that amount to "clickfests". Since everyone hates clickfests, they all agreed to play by certain rules (the wiki has the details for each relevant camp).
But to make such rules something the staff will enforce and a "player agreement" (vs. just "what someone felt like writing in the wiki") is the fact that all of the players "competing" agreed as a group to play by them ... and kept agreeing for awhile (the staff has never defined an exact time).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabin76
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4. However, sometime during Bob's camp, Candice gets tired and logs off. Once Bob's done he tries to inform Candice that she's up, but finds her gone. At this point...??? FTE? Bob decides, arbitrarily, on someone else? Assuming a transaction between Garelt and Candice didn't actually take place yet (it was just an agreement; one that can no longer be completed) Garelt has no more claim to the camp than anyone else.
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It seems to me if Bob can't pass the camp to Candice, it's entirely up to Bob to decide who is next. If he doesn't it's FTE ... but again, until a GM says as much, we don't know for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabin76
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Essentially, there are three classes of players at a camp: the current camp holder, whoever is next, and a pool of people that are also waiting for the camp who all vie for the "next" spot once there is a hand-off.
However (and this is an assumption I'm making based off of what you guys have provided), maintaining an actual list means that your place in line is an implied "player agreement". In other words, if you were Candice in the beginning and Alice told you Bob was next... as soon as you ask Bob if you can be after him - and he agrees - there is a list and the line can no longer be jumped. Perhaps this was created because people didn't like being in a "pool" of "not next" players for a camp that they then needed to compete for to be next at a hand-off, but once it's created anyone on it should be able to safely assume their place is set. The only caveat being that whoever is last in line can decide not to put the next person on the list and make it a free-for-all when their turn comes up.
Having no obligation to put someone on a list means that the last person is able to sell their spot, if they like. So my LowLevelButAnonymousCharacterThatTotallyCan'tKillA C could get put on the list, sit on my spot for however long it takes to get to position 3 or 4, then sell it (if there are buyers).
On the other hand, as soon as someone on the list cannot actually take over their camp (logging, not being able to get there in time, can't actually hold the camp) things get dicey. Does it become a FFA again? Does it simply go to the next-next person even though there was no agreement between those two players?
Sorry for the wall-of-stream-of-consciousness. I just want to know what to expect when I actually get into a position to perhaps want to take part in a popular camp.
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You are trying to make order out of chaos where there is none
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabin76
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TLDR: it seems to me that actually having a list is a form of "player agreement" that someone can be held fraudulent for if they sell their spot, unless they are the last in line and choose not to uphold the list after themselves.
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Hopefully my earlier explanation of player agreements clarifies this, but look, the big, gigantic, most important rule of all here is DON'T BE A DICK. You can pretty much always find a clause in the Play Nice Policies (ie. the only true rules) that says as much.
So there's no need for special "player agreement" rules or any "fancy elf lawyering": if someone is clearly and deliberately deceiving someone and you can prove it then the staff will almost certainly help you out (except with MQs). But if it's not 100% clear cut "someone is being a dick" ... we just don't know until it happens.
The vast majority of the time, everyone just passes as they should and a GM is never involved.
06-11-2020, 05:29 PM
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