The Current Raid Environment

[bktroost]

Originally Posted by jpetrick [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Did no one read this? Stop making huge walls of text and lets get all the guilds on the raid roster to say they want variance reduced further.

I know variance was historically put in place to spread guilds out more and reduce drama from encounters, but effectively it has only managed to create a competitive gap between the large and small guilds. If you can afford to throw more characters (and bodies) in a guild, then you can increase exposure to the window and ultimately improve the odds of getting the target. When the odds are small of success (i.e. smaller guilds) no one wants to toss away 16 hrs of their time on a regular basis. This ends up leaving the majority of FFA targets to bigger guilds.

The other side to that coin is that without a variance you get the zerg army of poopsockers lined up at the zone wall waiting for the encounter to pop. There is an advantage to variance, but if it was reduced to a more reasonable window you would see a lot more guilds getting involved in the scene. You could probably boil it down to a formula involving level of resources drained(16 hours of prep & tracking) x CoTH ducking & raid scene lawyering / value of potential encounter (fight entertainment, pixels, ect). If we cannot change the second variable (the way FFA is playing out) can we reduce the very long drain on our resources so we can endure it for a more reasonable time?

I can probably get my guild to do anything for 6 hours. I cannot get them to consistently desire to participate in this raid scene for a potential 16 hours.

With the new raid rules, I think it's fair to say that the server's raid scene is more diverse than ever and generally less tumultuous than before. In light of this, would it not be sensible to reduce the window on raid targets to something more palatable for everyone (+/- 6hrs, 3hrs?)

[bktroost]

bump

[Komodon]

Originally Posted by Pint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Or no mages? Maybe both?

For all the talk that's gone on in these threads about the poopsocking, i find it strange to seemingly see everybody here (but Chest) take such an anti-mage stance at this point. Given at it's core that has essentially played out to be the biggest poopsocking killer of all, as it negates quite a bit of the "necessary" manpower one might otherwise feel compelled to need in most cases before that 2 man team (as opposed to going the zoneline body count advantage route) turns a capped FTE attempt into a multi-minute prep time window for their entire guild. Of course, assuming people are willing to camp out at zone lines and send out a batphone.

I mean sure, coth ducking can suck. But like the 50 man in-game poopsock approach, that's more a Taken aspect in FFA play then a Class C thing, given they are the first to both introduce and always escalate it's use (anytime i've mage tracked and Taken is not there, i never have had a problem coming to an unsaid "if you don't do it neither will we" understanding with the opposing IB tracker). Probably best to cut right through Catherin's misinformation and gaming of the system attempts...then start by taking that up with her if you really have an issue on that.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Komodon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For all the talk that's gone on in these threads about the poopsocking, i find it strange to seemingly see everybody here (but Chest) take such an anti-mage stance at this point. Given at it's core that has essentially played out to be the biggest poopsocking killer of all, as it negates quite a bit of the "necessary" manpower one might otherwise feel compelled to need in most cases before that 2 man team (as opposed to going the zoneline body count advantage route) turns a capped FTE attempt into a multi-minute prep time window for their entire guild. Of course, assuming people are willing to camp out at zone lines and send out a batphone.

I mean sure, coth ducking can suck. But like the 50 man in-game poopsock approach, that's more a Taken aspect in FFA play then a Class C thing, given they are the first to both introduce and always escalate it's use (anytime i've mage tracked and Taken is not there, i never have had a problem coming to an unsaid "if you don't do it neither will we" understanding with the opposing IB tracker). Probably best to cut right through Catherin's misinformation and gaming of the system attempts...then start by taking that up with her if you really have an issue on that.

I'm going to try and say this nicely, but I'm really tired of hearing this from the IB and TMO crowd. Your playstyle held the server hostage for YEARS and Taken (in jest) stumbled upon the optimal way to game the new system and the only thing I hear is "mew mew mew we don't want to coth duck, it's all Taken's fault." The strat was going to be found, the new optimal strat is ALWAYS found, and the mantra from the hardcores is always TRY HARDER IF YOU WANT STUFF. Well not Taken is willing to "try harder" and you (and your ilk) just go and vilify them any chance you get. Give it a rest man.

[Komodon]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm going to try and say this nicely, but I'm really tired of hearing this from the IB and TMO crowd. Your playstyle held the server hostage for YEARS and Taken (in jest) stumbled upon the optimal way to game the new system and the only thing I hear is "mew mew mew we don't want to coth duck, it's all Taken's fault." The strat was going to be found, the new optimal strat is ALWAYS found, and the mantra from the hardcores is always TRY HARDER IF YOU WANT STUFF. Well not Taken is willing to "try harder" and you (and your ilk) just go and vilify them any chance you get. Give it a rest man.

As usual, you seem to be missing the point while getting too caught up in that endless crusade.

If Taken wants to coth duck that's fine. If *you* have an issue with doing so yourself though, and want to continually use that as a highlighted reason most of class R refuses to even attempt FFA mobs, might want to start with aiming your solution talk at them on that aspect is all. You know, instead of this tiring generalization that it's the "vile nature" of the Class C endgame that keeps you away, regardless of the fact most of these claims come with almost zero first hand exposure to it since everything got turned upside down.

Nice to see you at CT last night though. Other then your R&F thread, i thought it went pretty clean.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Komodon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As usual, you seem to be missing the point while getting too caught up in that endless crusade.

If Taken wants to coth duck that's fine. If *you* have an issue with doing so yourself though, and want to continually use that as a highlighted reason most of class R refuses to even attempt FFA mobs, might want to start with aiming your solution talk at them on that aspect is all. You know, instead of this tiring generalization that it's the "vile nature" of the Class C endgame that keeps you away, regardless of the fact most of these claims come with almost zero first hand exposure to it since everything got turned upside down.

Nice to see you at CT last night though. Other then your R&F thread, i thought it went pretty clean.

how am I missing the point? you're placing the blame at Taken's feet when it's obviously not, Taken coth ducks, IB coth ducks, TMO coth ducks, you all want pixels, you are all doing what it takes to get an edge. Blaming Taken for the problem then doing the exact same thing as Taken to gain that edge doesn't solve the problem, you're only exacerbating things (assuming Taken is actually the root cause, which I dont buy for a second)

[Komodon]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

how am I missing the point? you're placing the blame at Taken's feet when it's obviously not, Taken coth ducks, IB coth ducks, TMO coth ducks, you all want pixels, you are all doing what it takes to get an edge. Blaming Taken for the problem then doing the exact same thing as Taken to gain that edge doesn't solve the problem, you're only exacerbating things (assuming Taken is actually the root cause, which I dont buy for a second)

I guess it's my turn to put this as nicely as possible. It's not TMO/IB that introduced coth ducking into the equation, and you are giving us too little credit in your claim that Taken somehow "found" an edge that wasn't already known.

Again, it's rarely if ever even used in the event Taken isn't there contesting the mob, and only then when mobs get stupid late in their long ass window. But you and everybody else would already know that in the event you were showing up to try. Heck, on the Class C front we have a current agreement to not even use mages, which has been in effect since the tracker change went in.

[Pint]

perhaps mages have curbed the socking, but i know for guilds the size of asgard it puts us out of the race every time. we have 1 mage with the level and play time to actually track these FFA attempts for us atm and we simply cant ask him to sacrifice every weekend of his life on p99 trying for a slim chance at fte. i understand that not everyone is a 60 bard with a fast computer in a foot race, but at least we'd still have a chance to be in the foot race. as it stands now, only the largest guilds with the mage reserves can compete reliably.

[Komodon]

Originally Posted by Pint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

perhaps mages have curbed the socking, but i know for guilds the size of asgard it puts us out of the race every time. we have 1 mage with the level and play time to actually track these FFA attempts for us atm and we simply cant ask him to sacrifice every weekend of his life on p99 trying for a slim chance at fte. i understand that not everyone is a 60 bard with a fast computer in a foot race, but at least we'd still have a chance to be in the foot race. as it stands now, only the largest guilds with the mage reserves can compete reliably.

Well maybe if you ditched those little side projects like trying to epic lv 5 warriors in favor of PL'ing up a guild mage, you wouldn't have that problem [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. All kidding aside though, i don't argue that is a valid point against it. It's just a shame people do not focus more on addressing possible solutions to that, instead of skipping right to these dressed up "we want to compete with you guys and would, but..." proclamations that just center around the desire to see more content go uncontested by Class C. Which essentially is what this latest FFA on repops push amounts to imo.

I mean i get it. Chest is Chest, and is never going find a common ground with Class C that does not involve our head on a spike. Catherine isn't going to be the first to make the jump to Class C at the expense of giving up their free/guaranteed piece of the Class R pie either, instead choosing to maximize the shitshow potential in small doses on the FFA spawns they do decide to go after. Apparently content with however "dirty" the tactics may be if/when she feels it gives them an edge and they work, and outraged at stuff like us counter coth-ducking or putting non-kos mages there (we prefer that over taking the "oops my bad. again" infraction route) if/when they don't. As i was attempting to point out above before Chest seized on the chance to play his "Class C is the devil!" card, that's ultimately hurting you guys more there then us atm.

But with all due respect, those are more or less lost causes to having a productive discussion here though imo, and the flaw adding an FFA middle ground was bound to create in the first place. At least if a legitimate attempt at implanting a system aimed at encouraging the progression towards Class C was the real goal there. What i'm personally interested in hearing/seeing is what type of changes would need to be made for some of you other guilds to give FFA more of a try then showing once or twice over a 6 month period, choosing to poopsock your entire raid at a zoneline with a "might as well min/max our chances, no matter how small!" mindset when you do (should really stop doing that btw), and then completely giving up if/when you don't walk away with any loot.

Here, and speaking purely from an individual pov, i'll even throw you a sample presentation idea i'd be expecting off the top of my head:

- Reduce the variance time from 16 hours to 4

- Explore any option with the staff that would allow mob timers to be more spaced out over the week again, to avoid the current scenario that sees almost every window in a constant overlapping state. Which has just served to create the 48 hour straight tracking marathon that goes on every weekend for any guild with an active/multiple target agenda.

- Ask for some type of time of death stamp to be added to the raid policy page. Which would allow smaller guilds with lesser resources a somewhat better chance to plan ahead on targets if/when needed.

- Implant a "One-and-Done" agreement, which would probably end up making a lot of potentially rushed 3+ guild scrambles a lot easier to self manage at times. If a guild wipes their FTE, don't worry about going into "salvage mode" and gtfo of the way because you just automatically forfeited your chance to re-attempt that mob until the other guild/s present get an attempt in.

[bktroost]

I can't comprehend why our main thrust is on mage tracking. If we can't change the rotational order then spawn variance is the over arching concern.