PSA: Regarding Today's Severilous (8/24)

[Sirken]

Hail my fellow Norrathians,

We all know that in the heat of battle things can sometimes not go exactly as planned, and if someone sees somebody else do something, they immediately try to match it or one up it in order to maintain a competitive edge.

That being said, it is absolutely not ok for trackers to be parked on raid spawn locations.

Doing this, figuratively takes a big old dump on the entire purpose for the Staff telling the players we don’t want them poopsocking the raid spawn locations. We also do not want KoS trackers to be able to get afk FTE’s, as we feel this is more in line with using autofire, than it is in the spirit of the rules set forth, rules that, I will remind you, were all agreed on by the players.

Consider this a warning to all guilds, the next time this happens, you can expect a guild suspension. It’s something we take very seriously, and something we do not want to see repeated.

The loots from today’s Severilous will be deleted because the first two guilds on the FTE list were on the raid spawn location, and because the guild that ended up killing and taking the loots did not have a proper FTE, as they did not allow the mob to reset before engaging it.

<3
The Staff

[-Catherin-]

Thank you for the quick ruling!

[arsenalpow]

Precedent has already been set for a situation like this. BDA is being punished for killing the last 10% of a Nagafen by losing an entire class R Nagafen. Taken just killed a mob that was AG's FTE at 100% and they're going to skate? That's not appropriate or consistent.

Either rescind BDA's punishment or follow the precedent that was set.

[phiren]

To clarify: AG understands our FTE was not legit, as it was with a tracker, which we know is not allowed. We did not attempt to pull / kite / CoTH / etc. We died immediately. It was never our intention to FTE with a tracker, we are well aware of the rules, and will be more careful next time.

Not knowing exact spawn spots due to inexperience is our fault. Would it be possible for the GMs (or experienced guilds) to provide a complete list of exact pixel spawn spots for all outdoor raid targets? I know a couple, but not all.

This would help every guild new to the scene not be able to use ignorance as an excuse. If we knew Sev was going to spawn @ 1243.4, 4325.4, we would have been a mile away to avoid this.

Sirken doesn't want trackers around spawn point .. understood .. but what are these spawn points we need to steer clear of?

~Phiren
Azure Guard

[wycca]

Two questions -

- IB killed a mob they did not have FTE on and got raid suspended for 2 weeks and lost loot. Taken kills a mob they did not have FTE on and loses loot. Could you please help me understand the difference in rulings? Was Taken's rule violation less severe than IB's in some way?

- Policy per Deru has been that we are to negotiate before asking for a GM ruling. We had intended to do this with Taken - does this ruling eliminate our ability to negotiate for our lost FTE opportunity? Each guild there should be able to negotiate - as we saw TMO do with Taken and BDA both on a VS train - correct? That's the penalty for breaking rules - you have to work things out with every guild you harm via the negotiation-first policy - at least, thats how it appeared to be intended to work.

[-Catherin-]

However the Faydedar situation and this situation are not alike.

One involved a legal FTE where the other involved an illegal FTE. We immediately petitioned this matter as it took place so that everyone would have a clear ruling on the situation. We were not looking to get anyone in trouble, but rather a ruling. We were also prepared for whatever dropped to go to whoever had the first legitimate FTE, even though we were pretty confident that was still us anyways.

Regardless with people not being able to sit directly on the spawn point this problem should "hopefully" now be resolved. This is no change for us because we never parked our mages on the spawn point anyways. I'm of the personal opinion that CoHing to raid targets for FTE should be eliminated entirely though.

[Derubael]

Just to clarify a couple things that weren't explained in the OP.

Here is our 62 player long encounter log with 7 guilds present on the hate list of Sev before he was killed:

1 Nemce ( (L) Azure Guard 60 Magician 18:04:56 0 18:05:03 7 41897 0 0
2 Nemce's Pet (SumWaterR14) (L) Azure Guard 48 Rogue 18:04:56 0 18:05:03 7 41897 83 295
3 Zepharis's Pet (SumWaterR13) Inglourious Basterds 45 Rogue 18:05:00 4 18:05:26 26 40612 368 1248
4 Zepharis Inglourious Basterds 55 Magician 18:05:00 4 18:06:58 118 40612 0 0
5 Gnomb's Pet (SumWaterR13) Inglourious Basterds 45 Rogue 18:05:00 4 18:05:31 31 40612 195 1067
6 Gnomb Inglourious Basterds 56 Magician 18:05:00 4 18:05:31 31 40612 0 0
7 Theya ( (O) Taken 60 Bard 18:05:05 9 18:09:23 258 41363 0 3970
8 Golden The Mystical Order 55 Bard 18:05:16 20 18:08:11 175 41011 0 0
9 Conjour's Pet (SumWaterR14) Bregan D`Aerth 48 Rogue 18:05:23 27 18:05:26 3 40930 143 499
10 Conjour Bregan D`Aerth 60 Magician 18:05:23 27 18:06:36 73 40930 0 0
11 Ollie's Pet (SumWaterR13 Bregan D`Aerth 45 Rogue 18:05:24 28 18:05:32 8 40930 182 364
12 Ollie Bregan D`Aerth 56 Magician 18:05:24 28 18:06:08 44 40930 0 0
13 Troubledour (O) Bregan D`Aerth 60 Bard 18:05:41 45 18:09:14 213 40930 0 0
14 Moodie Taken 60 Bard 18:05:49 53 18:10:26 277 41363 911 1452
15 Ennio (O) Bregan D`Aerth 60 Bard 18:05:50 54 18:09:10 200 40930 0 60
16 Saragirl The Mystical Order 60 Ranger 18:05:56 60 18:06:37 41 41011 38 50
17 Yibz ( The Mystical Order 60 Bard 18:07:20 144 18:07:27 7 41011 0 0
18 Gremlin (O) Bregan D`Aerth 60 Monk 18:09:17 261 18:10:26 69 0 0 0
19 Gorruk Taken 60 Warrior 18:09:23 267 18:10:26 63 42052 1628 6330
20 Polemios Taken 57 Warrior 18:09:28 272 18:10:26 58 42153 760 842
21 Draenor Taken 60 Rogue 18:09:29 273 18:10:26 57 42214 6582 1892
22 Healier Taken 59 Cleric 18:09:29 273 18:10:26 57 42052 0 1232
23 Tekila Taken 53 Monk 18:09:30 274 18:10:26 56 42186 1401 1796
24 Cukazi Taken 60 Monk 18:09:32 276 18:10:26 54 42091 398 461
25 Eratou (O) Taken 60 Paladin 18:09:33 277 18:10:26 53 42019 1045 1372
26 Moostacheo aken 51 Druid 18:09:33 277 18:10:26 53 42016 0 1296
27 Jonwayne Taken 60 Rogue 18:09:33 277 18:10:26 53 42214 6065 1726
28 Dolphy Taken 60 Enchanter 18:09:33 277 18:10:26 53 42038 0 850
29 Shidashi Taken 60 Wizard 18:09:36 280 18:10:26 50 42186 2475 2625
30 Weasy Taken 60 Bard 18:09:37 281 18:10:26 49 42052 0 0
31 Noctyrix's Pet (skel_pet_47_) Taken 47 Warrior 18:09:37 281 18:10:26 49 42014 477 1182
32 Noctyrix ( Taken 60 Necromancer 18:09:37 281 18:10:26 49 42014 0 2310
33 Guaire (O) Taken 60 Shadow Knight 18:09:37 281 18:10:26 49 42213 693 2455
34 Wizardstoner Taken 60 Wizard 18:09:39 283 18:10:26 47 42052 4577 6125
35 Traps Taken 60 Druid 18:09:39 283 18:10:26 47 0 0 332
36 Xxamot Taken 60 Necromancer 18:09:40 284 18:10:26 46 42014 0 161
37 Fingon (O) Taken 60 Druid 18:09:40 284 18:10:26 46 42019 0 2148
38 Necromis Bregan D`Aerth 60 Necromancer 18:09:41 285 18:10:26 45 0 0 931
39 Bluemagic Taken 60 Wizard 18:09:41 285 18:10:26 45 42016 3300 3500
40 Xxamot's Pet (skel_pet_47_) ( Taken 47 Warrior 18:09:42 286 18:10:26 44 42014 171 828
41 Tzen Taken 54 Cleric 18:09:42 286 18:10:26 44 42052 0 640
42 Hermaphroditey Taken 60 Warrior 18:09:43 287 18:10:26 43 42186 2009 3545
43 Metu Taken 55 Paladin 18:09:43 287 18:10:26 43 42016 225 416
44 Jonasty Taken 60 Shaman 18:09:46 290 18:10:26 40 0 0 582
45 Cromcruach (O) Taken 60 Druid 18:09:46 290 18:10:26 40 42213 582 4296
46 Farsight Taken 60 Wizard 18:09:47 291 18:10:26 39 0 923 4375
47 Xephiros Taken 60 Warrior 18:09:48 292 18:10:26 38 0 1616 2531
48 Molinior Taken 54 Wizard 18:09:48 292 18:10:26 38 42038 1280 1360
49 Boombada Taken 54 Wizard 18:09:49 293 18:10:26 37 42052 820 1360
50 Indefinite Taken 60 Druid 18:09:51 295 18:10:26 35 42014 0 832
51 Roon Taken 53 Monk 18:09:51 295 18:10:26 35 42019 140 271
52 Kleptomaniac Taken 51 Rogue 18:09:52 296 18:10:26 34 42038 68 179
53 Mamael Taken 54 Wizard 18:10:07 311 18:10:26 19 42091 397 2224
54 Bier Inglourious Basterds 60 Monk 18:10:08 312 18:10:26 18 40612 0 0
55 Grenade Taken 60 Wizard 18:10:10 314 18:10:26 16 42014 0 3330
56 Brillayan's Pet (skel_pet_44_) Taken 44 Monk 18:10:16 320 18:10:26 10 42186 271 595
57 Brillayan Taken 58 Necromancer 18:10:16 320 18:10:26 10 42186 0 376
58 Psyphon Taken 60 Enchanter 18:10:17 321 18:10:26 9 42091 0 850
59 Mirgan Omni 60 Bard 18:10:23 327 18:10:26 3 42153 0 0
60 Fifield Taken 52 Bard 18:10:24 328 18:10:26 2 42091 0 0
61 Mikeo Divinity 60 Warrior 18:10:24 328 18:10:26 2 42108 37 135
62 Tobius Taken 55 Warrior 18:10:25 329 18:10:26 1 42019 110 94

As you can see, this was quite a clusterfuck, with even Omni and Divinity hopping in at the end. Oddly enough, 5 whole BDA show up in the middle for some reason, with AG getting FTE and dying 7 seconds later, but IB had a mage who was a secondary to AG's fte and kept the encounter rolling.

Taken grabbed the first 'legit' FTE, with THeya at #7 on the list. 11 seconds later TMO shows up for some reason, and then BDA piles on with their pets and a few officers for good measure.

Taken brings it back to camp finally after a lengthy 5 minute pull, and Divinity and Omni decide to take a stab cause fuckit why not.

Basically, everyone screwed up, so we find its best to just delete the loot, remind everyone to track far from the spawn from here on out and respect FTE as the end all be all of target engagement.

[bktroost]

Let's look at this potential solution. By saying " it is absolutely not ok for trackers to be parked on raid spawn locations" you are giving us a spirit of a rule and not the rule itself.

What I think that means is: "don't stand so close to the spawn point that, if the mob were to spawn, you would snatch aggro."

The only way for guilds to actually adhere to that rule is for every guild to know 2 pieces of crucial information. 1. Where exactly (x,y cords) does a mob spawn and 2. exactly how large is a mob's radius (in actual units).

Every guild is going to want to stand in range enough to view the mobs when they spawn, that is a given. But, beyond that, every guild is going to want to stand absolutely as close to that spawn point as possible without breaking the rules. If a guild says "I know what the GMs are saying, they want us to stay way away so they don't have to lawyer things, so I'm going to put my mage over here where I know I am safe" then they will ALWAYS loos FTE to the guild that rides the rules like a lawyer-- its too much of a disadvantage.

So, we either have to have that specific info on all of the FTE raid mobs (does this include Noble clickfest?) and their radius of aggro (also, means trackers need to be 60 otherwise they will increase their aggro radius... sitting/standing?) or we have to look at a new solution.

I love mages and I think that this change to the raid scene has been the first thing on this server to make the mage relevant again, but what is the disadvantage to removing them from the tracking picture? If we remove mages then everyone will use rangers and they will just be used to smash a /gu "X POPPED LOG OVER NOW" button or something and the tagger bard gets to do all the leg work himself right? If its a ranger tracker then you just have to be in tracking radius and no one cares how close to the mob you are.

I'm not disgruntled, I'm just trying to be practical and understand what needs to be done in the future.

[wycca]

Actually Catherin, the violation is the same. Who has initial FTE or whether its legit is moot. It's about killing a mob YOU do not have FTE on. This is why it must reset and you are not allowed to engage before then.

That Taken was somehow the first "legit" guild is also irrelevant, they killed a mob they did not have FTE on, plain and simple. This was an intentional act of rule breaking, an accidental - oh, they were 1st legit guild when we reviewed the log - does not change that they broke the rules. It should not mitigate the penalty, or negotiation-first responsibility of guilds because of that fluke.

[Argh]

Bringing back the 'mages can't be trackers' clause (Trak excepted) would eliminate any similar situation from happening again.

People are now going to either a) park non-kos mages on the spawn point or b) park kos-mages just outside of aggro range.

If the goal is to eliminate people parking at or near targets, then getting rid of mage trackers is the only real way to accomplish that. I don't think anyone really wants to continue chain ducking coths but they're all willing to at the moment because its necessary to do so.