The Current Raid Environment

[-Catherin-]

Derubael made it pretty clear in a recent post that if we really want to see change suggestions to the raid scene taken seriously then it needs to be discussed in this forum.

I'm seeing a whole lot more discussion going on but nothing still in this forum, where we have been told would be the only place that it would be given any weight. So im moving this topic here to see if people are ready to put their money where their mouths are.


The Current Points of Contention Are:


1. That FFA cycles are a failure and cause pretty much all of the current drama.

2. Class C and Class R are different playstyles - They just don't play nice together.

3. Variances are too close together and mob spawns stay too close because of this.

4. There is no clear direction for guilds that may want to test the Class C waters as to the process of moving back to Class R if it does not work out. Currently Class R views moving to Class C as guild suicide. There is nothing to motivate, and the risk is too high.

5. Autofire sucked and the current mage CoH spam sucks as well. What is there that would be better that could also be properly policied and enforced?



Some Suggestions/Solutions That Have Been Brought up Are:


1. Take variances and return them to what they were before the raid changes (all classes)

2. Take variances and return them to what they were before the raid changes (class C only)

3. C/R rotation, removing FFA from the rotation and making simulated repops complete FFA instead

4. C/C/R rotation, removing FFA from the rotation and making simulated repops complete FFA instead, INCLUDING adding VP to the R rotation.

5. C/R/FFA rotation remains as-is, but the current FFA mobs will all spawn at the same time (AKA when the first FFA mob of the week spawns, the rest automatically do as well)




So lets see what the guilds really think about all of this? Include suggestions I may have missed. Please represent your guild's opinion in this discussion. Keep personal grievances with one another and personal opinions at the door.

[arsenalpow]

No
No
Yes
No

Another proposed solution was to have all FFA mobs spawn simultaneously for the weekend. So if the FFA mobs starting Saturday were Gore, VS, Maestro, and Talendor whichever spawned first would trigger the other 3 to spawn as well.

[Derubael]

I don't think that this:

2. Take variances and return them to what they were before the raid changes (class C only)

Or this:

5. C/R/FFA rotation remains as-is, but the current FFA mobs will all spawn at the same time (AKA when the first FFA mob of the week spawns, the rest automatically do as well)

Is possible. It would require a significant amount of reworking to the spawn code and our code team is already overworked as is. It's probably better to assume no reworkings to the code at all, unless it's a quick change (like modifying variance). I'll also add that the only reason we lowered variance was because we had the promise all guilds would stop socking - which hasn't happened, so having this lowered or removed completely isn't something we'd be overly excited about doing.

To offer you guys some further insight about how we look at things when they go to the table, we don't necessarily look at "points of contention" but the problems those points create - for example, the FFA cycle being a failure surely is a point of contention, but we'll look at the problems that creates, rather than the point itself: FFA has a higher potential for BS, and guilds are afraid to go after spawns that are meant to be stepping stones to class-C. So when we look for solutions to implement, we are basing them off of solving those problems, rather than just saying "the FFA cycle has failed."

Will let you guys hash it out from there, just keep that in mind as you continue your discussion.

[arsenalpow]

If nothing code wise is on the table then I'd be shocked if changes were agreed upon by all relevant parties. No one agrees on a different method of policing this crap, foot races are dumb, coth races are dumb, it's all varying degrees of stupid. The only way to prevent multiple guilds from socking an FFA target is to give them other options that occur simultaneously. When the raid machine is doling out 1 target at a time it allows the incredibly pixel thirsty guilds to repeat this process every single time.

[Anichek]

Originally Posted by -Catherin- [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

3. C/R rotation, removing FFA from the rotation and making simulated repops complete FFA instead

4. C/C/R rotation, removing FFA from the rotation and making simulated repops complete FFA instead, INCLUDING adding VP to the R rotation.

Not speaking on behalf of BDA as a whole here, but offering a hybrid solution that includes parts of 3 and 4 above.


C/R class rotation (1:1) for all non-VP mobs. Regular spawns of VP remain Class C assigned at all times.

FFA portion of class assignment gets removed.

Simulated repops:

1. All mobs on simulated repop are FFA
2. VP is included as FFA on sim-repops
3. Bag Limits on repops vary by Class and Mob Type
4. Class C = 4 mob limit, 2 VP and 2 non-VP
5. Class R = 2 mob limit, 1 VP and 1 non-VP, or 2 non-VP

In my head, what this does is it:
a) addresses the point of contention, FFA thus far has been a failure
b) adds incentive to Class C, through retention of all VP mobs on regular spawns (which they have now), but also
c) adds the missing component of being able to test VP as a Class R guild, with a reward of potentially having more VP mobs via transition from R to C, because
d) Class C has a higher bag limit, full time access to VP


The only way to fix FFA is to treat it like cocaine. Give some samples (bag limits), let people hit a line, or two, or three, etc so that eventually they will become a long-term customer (move from R to C).

This would also potentially reduce the poopsocking - simulated repops could remain random and triggered (assuming that's how they happen now, or randomized coding has been really really tight in the shot group). Guilds that opt to race for a specific mob are making an active choice - and knowing that if you run to VP and race for PD loot, the time you spend there may cause you to miss out on getting something else (and thereby leave it open for other guilds who are getting shut out routinely - or in the instance of Class C, potentially "losing" because of the current bag limit and structure).


Just brainstorming - like I said this isn't sanctioned by BDA or Chest, it's my own thoughts.

[Erati]

I like your write up Anichek

If we make Repops FFA then it makes sense to give Class C a bigger bag limit as there will be ( hopefully ) not only more mobs for both classes to go after, but also more guilds in Class C at that point too

having an extra mob or two to go after on sim-repops is a solid start for finding ways to add incentives to the move from R to C

[Argh]

I don't really see there being a need for any big changes to the system that is currently in place.

There is already plenty of incentive to move from R to C.
1) It opens up VP.
2) There are only two C guilds to compete against.
3) Those guilds largely focus on VP.

In following that it makes no sense to open VP up as FFA as it would get rid of the largest incentive to move to C. If R gets access to VP then it means no guild will ever leave class R.

It could be made more clear as to how the process of being moved back down to R would work though (x weeks without a kill in vp).

FFA mobs are always going to be a shit show. Everyone will exploit any advantage there is to the utmost (coth ducking started on the first ffa mob with new rules). Poop socking, autofiring, coth ducking is evidence of this. I think everyone would agree to remove coth ducking, but once it is removed there will be another largely annoying thing that everyone suffers through because of fear that every other guild is doing it. There is no real simple solution to FFA problems other than through some code of conduct/honor system bullshit nobody here would honestly abide by.

If it were on the table, removing or reducing variance for everything would be great. This is the only real change that I think would improve things for everyone.

[jpetrick]

Variance should be reduced further maybe to +\- 2 or +\- 4. I don't really care if people want to sit around for the whole window on C or FFA mobs. (Repops are the only thing that works for having things be FFA because it spreads guilds out) I hate the burden a 16 hour window puts on people. It's not that easy to clear your schedule for 16 hours and I don't think you should be having people do that. Everquest is already a massive timesink. Non classic features shouldn't add further to that.

[Pint]

Originally Posted by Argh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think everyone would agree to remove coth ducking

asgard supports this stance. why cant we just go back to only allowing mages at trak?

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Pint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

asgard supports this stance. why cant we just go back to only allowing mages at trak?

because its not that simple.

two coth mages are infinitely easier to police that a mass of people at a specific spot running to a target, you'd need fraps to confirm the person that got FTE was at the predesignated spot before running and getting FTE