Warrior non hate weapons.

[Throndor]

It's algebraic:

A= Base DPS from single Swing
a= %chance to double attack

So if weapon 1 is 10dps as a 1/10 weapon, and the chance to double attack is 10% then DPS =
10x(10x0.1) = 11

Now, if weapon 2 is 10dps as a 2/20 weapon, and the chance to double attack is 10%, then DPS =
10x(10x0.1) = 11

Now, with that said, if the ratios of fast two hander, and slow two hander are the same, but the damage BONUS of the items is the same, then you will generate more DPS out of the faster weapon, because damage bonus is an flat additive bonus to the weapon on hit.

So if weapon 1 is 10/30 with 10 damage bonus:
Base hit dmg ranges 10-20 with a damage bonus 10 = 20-30 dmg range (25avg) / 30 delay = 0.8333 dmg/delay

and if weapon 2 is 20/60 with 10 dmg bonus:
Base hit dmg ranges 20-40 with a damage bonus of 10 = 30-50 dmg range (40 avg)/ 60 delay = 0.6667 dmg/delay

Numbers above are simplified, but portray the general story of how ratio + bonus is considered.

[ScruffMacBuff]

You gotta take into consideration the damage bonus and haste as well.

Case Study!

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html

Exquisite Velium Zweihander: 32/36 = .889
Carved Dragonbone Spear: 25/30 = .833

According to the table linked, the damage bonus for the Zweihander at level 60 is 31, and 29 for the Spear making their damage 63 and 54 respectively. Before the bonus is accounted for, the Zweihanders 32 damage is 28% greater than the spear, but with the bonus figured in it drops that figure to ~16%. This closes the gap on the ratio significantly.

Exquisite Velium Zweihander: 63/36 = 1.75
Carved Dragonbone Spear: 54/30 = 1.8

Now haste. I don't think it's too aggressive to say this guy might have good haste if he's got epics and Swiftblade of Zek, so let's just work with a capped haste for the sake of discussion. The new delay on the Exquisite becomes 18, and 15 for the spear.

Exquisite Velium Zweihander: 63/18 = 3.5
Carved Dragonbone Spear: 54/15 = 3.6

The attack rating difference due to the spear being a piercer is another problem altogether. Maybe the speed doesn't create as many more double attack opportunities as I thought, but the ratio alone isn't everything.

Edit - I was typing this as you guys were responding.

[kruptcy]

Originally Posted by ScruffMacBuff [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You gotta take into consideration the damage bonus and haste as well.

Case Study!

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html

Exquisite Velium Zweihander: 32/36 = .889
Carved Dragonbone Spear: 25/30 = .833

According to the table linked, the damage bonus for the Zweihander at level 60 is 31, and 29 for the Spear making their damage 63 and 54 respectively. Before the bonus is accounted for, the Zweihanders 32 damage is 28% greater than the spear, but with the bonus figured in it drops that figure to ~16%. This closes the gap on the ratio significantly.

Exquisite Velium Zweihander: 63/36 = 1.75
Carved Dragonbone Spear: 54/30 = 1.8

Now haste. I don't think it's too aggressive to say this guy might have good haste if he's got epics and Swiftblade of Zek, so let's just work with a capped haste for the sake of discussion. The new delay on the Exquisite becomes 18, and 15 for the spear.

Exquisite Velium Zweihander: 63/18 = 3.5
Carved Dragonbone Spear: 54/15 = 3.6

The attack rating difference due to the spear being a piercer is another problem altogether. Maybe the speed doesn't create as many more double attack opportunities as I thought, but the ratio alone isn't everything.

All of our posts are considering DPS, not ratio, so the bonus will have already been taken into account.

[aaezil]

That table you linked goes up to lvl 65 and probably contains info for after they buffed 2handers, so i would ignore it.

And about the 2h vs dw discussion... Its dual weild for better dps not even close unless you’re talking reaver or other end game 2handers. The person who mentioned more damage bonus hits with fast 1 hander was right on the money this spikes dps ahead of most 2handers.

If you dont believe me for whatever dumb reason get and use a parser, i use gamparse.

[ScruffMacBuff]

Originally Posted by aaezil [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That table you linked goes up to lvl 65 and probably contains info for after they buffed 2handers, so i would ignore it.

AFAIK the 2h buff doesn't effect the damage bonus, but they mess with the calculations so you don't see as many as many 60-70 damage hits mixed in with the 150-200 damage hits.

[MagpieRockyl]

Are ALS allowed to retain non classic mathematics knowledge? Are they only permitted to learn algebra from guild mates?

Double attack is a simple multiplier. Instead of doing1 hit you do 2.

Doubling dps of one weapon and another will have the same proportional effect as another x:y is the same ratio as 2x:2y, mate.

[ScruffMacBuff]

Forgive me! Don't tell Rainik I overstepped!

I know the math seems like it should be as simple as you're making it but we haven't even talked about accuracy and more importantly, the range of numbers each hit could land for which favors lower damage weapons simply because they have a higher chance of hitting in the top end of their range. That's what makes dual wielding so much more consistent. Faster attacks with a smaller range of possible outcomes for each hit.

[Throndor]

Originally Posted by ScruffMacBuff [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You gotta take into consideration the damage bonus and haste as well.

Case Study!

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html

Exquisite Velium Zweihander: 32/36 = .889
Carved Dragonbone Spear: 25/30 = .833

According to the table linked, the damage bonus for the Zweihander at level 60 is 31, and 29 for the Spear making their damage 63 and 54 respectively. Before the bonus is accounted for, the Zweihanders 32 damage is 28% greater than the spear, but with the bonus figured in it drops that figure to ~16%. This closes the gap on the ratio significantly.

Exquisite Velium Zweihander: 63/36 = 1.75
Carved Dragonbone Spear: 54/30 = 1.8

Now haste. I don't think it's too aggressive to say this guy might have good haste if he's got epics and Swiftblade of Zek, so let's just work with a capped haste for the sake of discussion. The new delay on the Exquisite becomes 18, and 15 for the spear.

Exquisite Velium Zweihander: 63/18 = 3.5
Carved Dragonbone Spear: 54/15 = 3.6

The attack rating difference due to the spear being a piercer is another problem altogether. Maybe the speed doesn't create as many more double attack opportunities as I thought, but the ratio alone isn't everything.

Edit - I was typing this as you guys were responding.

The math here is wrong because weapon damage is a damage type that is multiplied by the player's Strength/Attack rating, whereas Bonus Damage is an additive stat that adds a flat number to the final calculation:

For sake of clarity, lets say every 50 STR = a potential 1x modifier on the weapon's damage stat as it pertains to the max hit.

In this example a 20 dmg 40 delay weapon with 30 damage bonus would factor out as such on a 250 str warrior:

20(weapon damage)x(250/50)Strength= 100dmg + 30(damage bonus) = Max hit non-crit of 130/40dly = 3.25dmg/delay when the warrior rolls a 19 and hits for max (a roll of 20 being a crit)

Example 2: 40 dmg/80 delay weapon with 35 dmg bonus on a 250 STR warrior:

40(weapon damage) x (250/50)STR = 200dmg +35(damage bonus) = Max hit non-crit of 235/80dly = 2.9375 dmg/delay when the warrior rolls a 19 and hits for max.

Conversely, if we look at minimum hits (1dmg+damage bonus) the minimum hit on the first weapon would be 31 dmg for 40dly or 0.775 dmg/delay

whereas the minumum hit for the 2nd weapon (1dmg + dmg bonus) works out to 36 dmg with 80 delay = 0.45 dmg/delay


The game does not treat the base damage of the weapon the same way it does damage bonus. Base weapon damage is used in the Damage-Interval portion of the damage equation, which is multiplied times the STR/Attack multiplier, whereas the damage bonus is a flat additive bonus.

It's kind of like the Celsius to Farenheit conversion formula:

C = 5/9F(damage interval rolled against a 20 sided die) +32(damage bonus; a flat always added number never multiplied)

[ScruffMacBuff]

Thanks for that. It looks I'd been misinformed on how that works in the past.

After work I'll apply this formula to some weapons to prove or disprove my stance.

[Throndor]

Yep, likewise when it comes to tanking. AC can increase the likelihood that you mitigate the damage interval of a mob's damage output, but nothing mitigates the mob's Damage Bonus (until the Shielding mod2 is introduced which has a cap of 35% damage BONUS mitigation.

As such, you will note the most challenging raid bosses of this expansion are the ones which have the highest damage bonus stat, and not so much their damage interval.

I mean, sure, it sucks to get hit by a big damage interval, but if you're adequately raid geared for teh encounter max hits should be fairly infrequent. its far better to tank a mob that has a max hit of 400 (20DI of 20 dmg) with zero damage bonus (minimum damage = 1DI or 20), than it is to tank a mob that hits for 350, with 150 of that damage being "damage bonus" because then the minimum hit is 150+10 = 160

In the above scenario if the tank in question were at the adequate AC level, they would see an almost even distribution of the damage table, with mob1 seeing an average hit 210 (perfect distribution of a damage range of 20 to 400 = (20+400)/2, and mob 2 seeing an average hit of 255 (perfect distribution of a damage range of 160 to 350 being (160+350)/2)

As we see in the above damage, mob2 hits for 12.5% less max hit, but is pumping out %21.5 more damage because 42.9% of its max damage potential is unmitigatable Damage Bonus vs mob1 having zero damage bonus but 14.3% more maximum damage potential.