Armor Class

[Synthlol]

So I took a gander this thread about AC.


On page two, Haynar says:

"And we use a softcap system, not a hardcap based system.

Warriors get a 45% return above softcap.

Adding a shield increases ur softcap."

When Haynar says that p99 uses a softcap system, is he talking about a worn AC softcap or a cumulative AC softcap?


Just for reference: In the current era on live, worn AC was hardcapped and shield AC wasn't special. Cumulative AC was softcapped for melee classes but hardcapped for priests and casters.

[Jimjam]

It's incredibly unclassic, but that is the system we have.

For any interested: the correct formula in velious is:
Raw AC (Hardcapped based on level) + Class Bonus + Defense Skill Bonus + Agility Bonus + Spell AC = Total Displayed AC (Hardcapped again based on Class)

Except, note: sometime during Velious it was changed to a soft cap for melee classes only. The return was fairly small, though.

As you say, shield should not be double counted, and the return after softcap is definitely not minimal.

Point of interest: rogues should get a small boost to mitigation AC for having moderate levels of agility. I don't know if that happens here.

(Source on the above)

So, the reason the Devs knowingly use an in-classic system?

Apparently the mobs have been tuned on this server for bloated AC, so they end up doing approximately the correct dps at 50-60. IT was said somewhere (I don't have a link) that it would be too much work to retune all the mobs attack values to be balanced to worn AC values after worn AC gets nerfed.

Really we should not be releasing green until this is fixed as it is a huge, HUGE unclassic bug that comes up almost every time any npc hits a pc.


edit:
Also, this Haynar comment: "There is a component to your defense rating based on level." Seems to be something that should not be true. AFAIK the Defence skill is meant to be a loose proxy for level, level it self should never be called in to such equations.

doubleedit cos forummads:
Haynar did end up removing the level part from defence rating and installed a worn ac cap of level*6 + 25 at low levels.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Really we should not be releasing green until this is fixed as it is a huge, HUGE unclassic bug that comes up almost every time any npc hits a pc.

Caveat: If the non-classic system produces classic-like results (despite having excessive returns over softcap, and despite shields being double counted) then I suppose the details of how the system produces the classic-like results is irrelevant.

The ends justify the means, right?

[dbouya]

Yes, the ends do justify the means, but in this case the means being 5% off still leaves the ends 1% off. Of course green ever existing is only 0.1% chance :-p
You don't run out of stamina in normal combat either that probably effects player DPS a decent amount. I think some of these problems are just impossible to solve though.


vov

[Synthlol]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's incredibly unclassic, but that is the system we have.

This statement confuses me. What is the system we have?

The only question posed in the OP was: When Haynar says that p99 uses a softcap system, is he talking about a worn AC softcap or a cumulative AC softcap?]

That's all I want to know. How AC should work is well documented, but the devs know this and don't care, so neither do I. All that matters is how it actually works here, now.

Does his statement that we use a softcap system mean that both worn and cumulative AC are softcapped?

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by Synthlol [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This statement confuses me. What is the system we have?

I would love to hear a simplified explanation of how AC works on this server.

It seems broken as hell, if it were not you'd see the emphasis on AC being greater than it is and as it stands it seems no one gives a crap about AC.

[Jimjam]

Sorry, I went off on one!

When you say 'cumulative' AC do you mean:

"Worn AC added to class bonuses (including the monk bonus), defense skill bonus, agility bonus, and the AC from spell buffs"?

From what I have read, the above should be soft capped for melee at this point (but hard capped for casters). Worn AC by itself should be hard capped for everyone.

From my understanding Haynar seems to imply worn AC is softcapped. I could be wrong!

Perhaps the best thing to do is PM and ask him whether worn AC is soft capped, if worn + buffs/bonuses is softcapped or something else?

The worst he can do is ignore you, the best is give the exact info you are looking for? I wouldn't bother because I wouldn't want to waste even a precious second of his time, or even worse be the subject of his ire! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.].

[Synthlol]

Thanks for the on topic reply! This is the conversation I want to have.

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When you say 'cumulative' AC do you mean:

"Worn AC added to class bonuses (including the monk bonus), defense skill bonus, agility bonus, and the AC from spell buffs"?

From what I have read, the above should be soft capped for melee at this point (but hard capped for casters). Worn AC by itself should be hard capped for everyone.

Yes, this is what I mean by cumulative AC. And yes, this is my current understanding of how AC worked on live in this era.

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

From my understanding Haynar seems to imply worn AC is softcapped. I could be wrong!

I have to agree that it makes more sense in context for him to mean that we use a softcap system on worn AC in place of a hardcap on worn AC, rather than him meaning that worn AC is hardcapped but all classes have a softcap on cumulative AC.

I'm also crossing my fingers this is the case. Hardcapping worn AC makes me sad, so even though this wouldn't be classic, I'd prefer for item AC to not be hardcapped and worthless. If this is true, the question then becomes whether or not priest/caster cumulative AC is hardcapped or softcapped.

I'm convinced at this point that he meant both worn and cumulative AC are softcapped, but I'm still hoping someone can definitively set me straight.

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Perhaps the best thing to do is PM and ask him whether worn AC is soft capped, if worn + buffs/bonuses is softcapped or something else?

The worst he can do is ignore you, the best is give the exact info you are looking for? I wouldn't bother because I wouldn't want to waste even a precious second of his time, or even worse be the subject of his ire! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.].

This was the first thing I did, but I'm not going to hold my breath, so I decided to make a forum post too. Nothing would make me happier than him replying with a simply "both", though, as long as it isn't just him trolling me.

[markcosmin]

O-boy I love this rabbit hole, lets see if I can dig up the steel warrior thread from this era

[markcosmin]

From an actual developer

Okay, this is something I've been researching over the last few days to present.
What is your 'Real AC'?
Or, When 'Mitigation AC' meets 'Avoidance AC'

Hopefully this will shed some light on the arcane calculations used to get the number you see in your inventory window versus the number used for some mitigation and avoidance purposes.

I'll preface this by saying that this may generate more questions than I am able to answer in the near future, but this is as complete of an answer as I can offer at the moment.

So you want to know what your 'Real AC' is? I'll step you through the calculations and explain why the number you see in your inventory window is not representative of what NPCs look at when they're hitting you in melee combat. It is a strong possibility that sometime in the future the number you see in your inventory window will be accurately reflective of the number we're going to calculate here, but this will hopefully be helpful in the meantime.

Note that unless explicitly stated otherwise all of these calculations are using integer math, so truncation will occur with each division.

Let's start with what we'll call your 'Displayed AC Value'. This is the number in your inventory window.

Displayed AC Value is equal to what we'll call your 'AC Sum' added to your 'Computed Defense' multiplied by 1000 then divided by 350 plus 497. What that looks like as an equation is:
(1000 * (ACSum + ComputedDefense)) / (350 + 497)

Because it's shorter, I'll now explain how to find your 'Computed Defense'. Think of the 'Computed Defense' as 'Avoidance AC', it is basically how hard it is to land a hit on you. Despite this fact, this value gets rolled into displayed AC. To calculate this, take your defense skill multiplied by 400 then divided by 225, add your 'Agility Bonus', add the capped sum of your 'Item Avoidance', then multiply this value based on your 'Drunkenness Reduction'. If this value is less than 1, return 1 instead. I'll display this as an equation then break down the steps in the next paragraphs:
Step1 = (DefenseSkill*400) / 225
Step2 = Step1 + 'Agility Bonus'
Step3 = Step2 + 'Item Avoidance'
Step4 = Step3 * 'Drunkenness Reduction'
If Step4 < 1: 'Computed Defense' = 1
Otherwise 'Computed Defense' = Step4.

Your 'Agility Bonus' is calculated as your 'Functional Agility' minus 40, multiplied by 8000 divided by 36000 added to your heroic agility divided by 10. Your 'Functional Agility' is defined as your capped stat + the amount of heroic Agility you have. I'll use the values on my avatar as an example, the second tab of my inventory window states that I have 1002/900 base agility +395 heroic agility. My 'Functional Agility' is 900+395, 1295, the value that is displayed on the first tab of my inventory window. In equation form it looks like:
Step1 = (8000 * (FunctionalAgility-40)) / 36000
Step2 = (HeroicAgility / 10)
'Agility Bonus' = Step1 + Step2

Your 'Item Avoidance' is the capped value of 'Avoidance' stat that you have from items. The cap is currently 100 points.

Your 'Drunkenness Reduction' is a multiplier that is applied if you are beyond a certain threshold of drunkenness. The amount of drunk you can be is a range from 0-200, each drink adds a fixed amount based on your alcohol tolerance skill but for the purposes of this equation only the 0-200 scale is relevant. This calculation uses float math so decimals are in play: If your drunkenness value divided by 2 (let's call it 'Value') is greater than 20.0 then you have a 'Reduction Multiplier' equal to 110 minus 'Value' divided by 100.0. If this 'Reduction Multiplier' is greater than 1.0, set it to 1.0. Multiply your 'Step3' value by this 'Reduction Multiplier' and truncate any decimal points. In equation form:
Value = HowDrunk / 2
Reduction = (110 - Value)/100.0
If Reduction > 1.0: Reduction = 1.0
Step4 = truncate(Step3*Reduction)

Now we've successfully calculated your 'Computed Defense' value, we're halfway there (kinda)!

Let's calculate your 'AC Sum'. It is in this portion of the equation that the number you see in your inventory window begins to diverge from what the server uses for combat calculations. I'll point out each location where these numbers diverge as we get to them.

Your 'AC Sum' is calculated with all of the following:
1. Your 'Base AC' value, which for players is equal to 0 but can be higher if you are a shroud.
2. The total AC stat you see on each item that you have equipped in your inventory window not including your ammo slot.
3. If you have a shield in your secondary slot, its value is included in step 2 but it is also recorded individually as a 'Shield AC' value.
4. Additionally if you have a shield equipped in your secondary slot, your heroic strength / 10 is added to your 'Shield AC' value.
5. Any AC from the drink you are consuming.
6. Any AC from the food you are consuming.
7. Any AC from a tribute item you have equipped.
8. Any AC from a trophy item you have equipped.
9. Any AC from a guild tribute item you have equipped.
10. Any AC from a guild trophy item you have equipped.

To put the above into an equation:
Step1 = 0 (base ac)
Step2 = Sum of all of the AC stat on every piece of gear you can see in you inventory (not ammo slot.)
Step3 = If equipping shield [AC stat on your shield + (HeroicSTR/10)]
Step4 = FoodAC + DrinkAC
Step5 = TributeItemAC + TrophyItemAC + GuildTributeItemAC + GuildTrophyItemAC
Step6 = Step1+Step2+Step4+Step5

Now 'EQ Math' comes into play. We're going to start doing things with the numbers that I don't have real answers for, but this is what happens. Take the sum you've got from the above steps and multiply that by 4 then divide by 3.
Step7 = (Step6 * 4) /3

The next step is the first point that the inventory window value you see and the server's calculated value can differ. There is some anti-twinking code in place that states that if you are below level 50 and the ac value we've calculated up to this point exceeds 25 + 6 times your level, cap your AC at 25 + 6 times your level. This only happens on the server and is not displayed in the inventory window however. In equation form:
Step8 (server) = if PlayerLevel < 50 and Step7 > (25 + (6*PlayerLevel)): = (25 + (6*PlayerLevel))
Step8 (server) = Otherwise: = Step7
Step8 (player) = Step7

Now we add your class and race bonuses to your AC value. This is another trip into 'EQ Math'. This step is relevant if you are a monk, a rogue, a beastlord, or an Iksar. If you are a monk the following data points come into play: Based on your level you have a hard cap on the amount of weight you can carry and you have a soft cap on the weight you can carry.
Level 15: HardCap 32: SoftCap 15
Level 30: HardCap 34: SoftCap 16
Level 45: HardCap 36: SoftCap 17
Level 51: HardCap 38: SoftCap 18
Level 55: HardCap 40: SoftCap 20
Level 60: HardCap 45: SoftCap 24
Level 62: HardCap 47: SoftCap 24
Level 64: HardCap 50: SoftCap 24
Level 65: HardCap 53: SoftCap 26
Level 70: HardCap 53: SoftCap 28
Level 75: HardCap 53: SoftCap 30
Level 80: HardCap 54: SoftCap 31
Level 85: HardCap 55: SoftCap 32
Level 90: HardCap 56: SoftCap 33
Level 95: HardCap 57: SoftCap 34
Level 100: HardCap 58: SoftCap 35

Staying under the hard cap allows you to receive an AC bonus that gets increasingly worse if you are over your soft cap. Going over your hard cap will cause you to incur an AC penalty however. The way this is calculated is as follows:

If your total weight is less than your (Hard Cap - 1) then your bonus starts out as (your level + 5). If your total weight is greater than your soft cap, then a 'Reduction' is applied, this reduction is a float so decimals will come into play. Your reduction is equal to your current weight minus your soft cap multiplied by 6.66667, this reduction is capped at 100.0 then your reduction is set equal to 100 minus reduction divided by 100. Your bonus is then multiplied by this reduction value and if it is less than 0 it is set equal to 0. As an equation:
ACBonus = PlayerLevel + 5
If Weight > SoftCap:
Reduction = (Weight - SoftCap) * 6.66667
If Reduction > 100.0: = 100.0
Reduction = (100 - Reduction) / 100
ACBonus = ACBonus*Reduction
If ACBonus < 0: = 0

After that occurs the AC bonus is multiplied by 4 and divided by 3, because 'EQ Math'. As an equation:
ACBonus = (4 * ACBonus) / 3

Now if the previous case was not true and it turns out that your total weight is greater than your (Hard Cap +1) then you will incur an AC penalty that can be as bad as (your level + 5). The 'Penalty Multiplier' is equal to your total weight minus 10 less than your hard cap then divided by 100.0, if this 'Penalty Multiplier' is greater than 1.00 then it is set to 1.00. Your penalty is multiplied by 4 then divided by 3 then multiplied by this 'Penalty Multiplier'. In equation form:
Penalty = PlayerLevel +5
Multiplier = (Weight - (HardCap-10.0))/100.0
If Multiplier > 1.0: = 1.0
Penalty = (4 * Penalty) / 3
Penalty = Multiplier * Penalty

At the end of all of that, either your penalty or your bonus is added to your 'Class AC Bonus' for monks. Now we move onto rogues. If you are a rogue and you are above level 30 and your 'Functional Agility' is greater than 75 you get AC bonuses! They are broken down more easily as an equation than in words:
LevelScaler = PlayerLevel - 26
If Agility < 80: ACBonus = (LevelScaler * 1) / 4
If Agility < 85: ACBonus = (LevelScaler * 2) / 4
If Agility < 90: ACBonus = (LevelScaler * 3) / 4
If Agility < 100: ACBonus = (LevelScaler * 4) / 4
If Agility >= 100: ACBonus = (LevelScaler * 5) / 4
If ACBonus > 12: = 12

If instead of a monk or a rogue you happen to be a beastlord that is above level 10 you get a slightly more generous bonus than rogues based on your level and agility. Again this is easier as an equation than in words:
LevelScaler = PlayerLevel - 6
If Agility < 80: ACBonus = (LevelScaler * 1) / 5
If Agility < 85: ACBonus = (LevelScaler * 2) / 5
If Agility < 90: ACBonus = (LevelScaler * 3) / 5
If Agility < 100: ACBonus = (LevelScaler * 4) / 5
If Agility >= 100: ACBonus = (LevelScaler * 5) / 5
If ACBonus > 16: = 16

In addition to these class bonuses there is also the bonus for being an Iksar. This was included to help balance the game for Iksars who could not wear plate armor. A time honored tradition that was followed for 2 out of our 21 releases. The Iksar AC bonus is equal to your level with a minimum value of 10 and a maximum value of 35. In equation form:
ACBonus = PlayerLevel
If ACBonus < 10: = 10
If ACBonus > 35: = 35

Now the sum of your class and racial bonus is returned back to the 'AC Sum' formula.
Step9 = Step8 + RaceClassBonus

Now if your AC is less than 0, we set it back to zero here. I suppose this would come into play if you were a monk with no armor, very low defense and a terribly high amount of weight.
If Step9 < 0: = 0

Now we come to the second point where your visible AC value could differ from what the server calculates. However it's not entirely relevant because this step only occurs if you are an NPC. I'll cover it anyway.

If you are an NPC, your base AC value is added to the calculated value up to this point, this is the value that designers put on NPCs to adjust for player attack values. You might notice in Plane of War that NPCs innately mitigate melee slightly better than in other zones. This is because PoWar uses AC values equivalent to player AC values (3000-4000) where 'most' of the creatures in game don't exceed 600 AC. In addition to this base AC value, if you are a summoned pet and your owner is a player, get the total amount of SPA 397 that they have. SPA 397 is essentially just pet AC. For reference, rank 18 of Sturdy Companion offers 3800 points of this SPA. In equation form, only relevant if you are an NPC or a pet:
Step10 (Server) = Step9 + NPCBaseAC
Step11 (Server) = Step10 + OwnersPetACAAs

Now we include both buffs and defense skill as part of your AC Sum. This calculation differs between silk classes and everyone else and is also the reason why we typically don't include the base value of AC buffs in spell descriptions, because they differ depending on the class that is looking at the buff. For silk classes which are enchanters, magicians, necromancers and wizards you add your defense skill divided by 2 to your ac as well as the total amount of SPA 3 [AC] and SPA 416 [AC2] divided by 3 to your ac. For any other classes you will add your defense skill divided by 3 and the total amount of SPA 3 and SPA 416 divided by 4 to your ac.

Now in addition to buffs there is also AC offered by AAs. Some important reference points at level 100 for those values are that each rank of Hero's Fortitude adds 10 ac and Armor of Wisdom offers a different amount of AC based on your classes broken down as follows:
Armor of Wisdom 18 - Bards, Clerics, Monks, Rangers: 650 ac
Armor of Wisdom 18 - Paladins, Shadowknights: 620 ac
Armor of Wisdom 18 - Beastlords, Berserkers, Rogues, Shaman: 720 ac
Armor of Wisdom 18 - Warriors: 610 ac
Armor of Wisdom 18 - Druids, Enchanters, Magicians, Necromancers, Wizards: 840 ac

In equation form:
Step12 = If Silk: DefenseSkill / 2
Step12 = Otherwise: DefenseSkill / 3
Step13 = If Silk: (SPA3Buffs + SPA416Buffs) / 3
Step13 = Otherwise: (SPA3Buffs + SPA416Buffs) / 4
Step14 = If brd,clr,mnk,rng: AOWTotal / 4
Step14 = If pal,shd: AOWTotal / 4
Step14 = If bst,ber,rog,shm: AOWTotal / 4
Step14 = If war: AOWTotal / 4
Step14 = If dru,enc,mag,nec,wiz: AOWTotal / 3
Step15 = If Silk: HerosFortTotal / 3
Step15 = Otherwise: HerosFortTotal / 4
Step16 = Step11 + Step12 + Step13 + Step14 + Step15

Now the next step is to calculate an agility bonus if your agility is over 70. This bonus is equal to your 'Functional Agility' / 20. Afterwards if your ac is less than 0, set it back to 0 again. In equation form:
Step17 = If FunctionalAgility > 70: = (FunctionalAgility / 20)
Step 18 = Step16 + Step17
If Step18 < 0: = 0

That was the last thing that the player facing calculation does, so you can return the step18 value to the 'Displayed AC Value' function and you should get the same number you see in your inventory window if all of the math was done right. However the next step that occurs is the most important difference between what you see in your inventory window and what goes into the combat calculations in game, this is where the 'soft cap' on AC is calculated.

The 'AC Soft Cap' is defined in a table for each class at each level. Each combination of those two data points has a 'Soft Cap' and a 'Post Cap Multiplier'. I'm only going to list the values for classes at level 100.
Enchanters, Magicians, Necromancers, Wizards: Cap 408 - Multiplier 0.25
Druids: Cap 418 - Multiplier 0.265
Beastlords, Berserkers, Rogues, Shaman: Cap 432 - Multiplier 0.28
Bards, Clerics, Monks: Cap 448 - Multiplier 0.3
Rangers: Cap 468 - Multiplier 0.315
Paladins, Shadowknights: Cap 488 - Multiplier 0.33
Warriors: Cap 510 - Multiplier 0.35

Based on your class you would take the Cap value then multiply it by the total amount of SPA 259 that you have, divide by 100 then add that back to the cap value. SPA 259 is primarily obtained through Combat Stability but there is a small additional amount granted via Physical Enhancement. For reference, rank 53 of Combat Stability is 80 points and Physical Enhancement is 2 points. In equation form:
Step19 (Server) = (ACCap * SPA259Total) / 100
Step20 (Server) = ACCap + Step19

Now we go back to the amount of 'Shield AC' that was calculated earlier in the function and add that to this newly calculated AC cap. This is what has lead to the traditional wisdom that AC on your shield is anywhere from 4 to 3 times as useful as AC anywhere else.
Step21 (Server) = Step3 + Step20

Now if your total AC is greater than the AC cap we just calculated (a likely scenario at anything but very low levels) we multiply the amount over the soft cap by your class' multiplier and add that to your calculated soft cap value to get your 'Real AC'.
If Step18 > Step21:
Step22 (Server) = Step18 - Step21
Step23 (Server) = Step21 + (Step22 * ClassMultiplier)
Step24 (Server) = Truncate(Step23)
'Mitigation AC' = Step24 (Server)

Otherwise:
'Mitigation AC' = Step18 (Server)
Some of the combat calculations now use your 'Mitigation AC' for some of the mitigation calculations (in conjunction with innumerable other things that are outside the scope of this post.)

While you may think of this number as 'Real AC', it is more accurate to say that it is your 'Mitigation AC' while your 'Displayed AC' is more of an obfuscated incomplete calculation.