Raid Scene Questions

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Nietche [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How is that RnF logic? I'm not the only person on the server who feels as if the "classic experience" on P99 has been muddied with rotations and the like.

Lets go through it step by step then.

Originally Posted by Nietche [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mainly in before RnF. But we should really go back to a time when pseudo-WoW instances weren't in effect with a CSR-enforced rotation.

Equating a class system to an instance is a terrible comparison. They are significantly different. Just because the Class R guilds came together to decide that they (with the exception of Dolj later on) wanted to rotate their mobs changes nothing. By the core of the raiding rules as laid down by Rogean, Class R mobs are competitive among Class R guilds.

It is a disservice to even put this in the same category as instancing, as it is still open world mobs, merely stipulating which of the guilds are permitted to go after it to prevent the complete domination of the content (something that can happen far easier due to numerous non-classic factors that define this server, not the least of which is the knowledge we have and the time frame). In an instance, you do not have competition against other guilds, you are in your own safe bubble focusing all your efforts against the PvE content. Class R is not a singular unit, and just because for 1/3rd of the kills, they have the chance to compete amongst themselves for mobs (which most of them have waived) does not an instance make.

Originally Posted by Nietche [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This "redistribution of the wealth" garbage was all one person's idea (hint: he's in BDA),

The system of "redistribution", as you are labeling it (a label which I would also point out is severely faulted, as it suggests anyone prior to the agreement had ownership of the random spawns, and ultimately everything in this game is owned by the server owners), was from a class system put into place and proposed first and foremost by Rogean as the "Staff Proposal". The rotation was an agreement made by a wide assortment of Class R guilds, not "one person's idea".

Originally Posted by Nietche [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

and now we have a situation where a guild like Azure Guard can't kill a dragon because of a CSR rule--yet receives the blessing of every other Class R guild to do so--and gets suspended.

They can't kill a dragon because they had previously killed it and were on lock out. It's not to be maligned as being unable to take the thing down. They were restricted because they are Class R (class Restricted). If they want to have free access to those dragons at any point, they can just go to Class C. That's the incentive for not being Class R. If you want to get the full go-for-anything experience without lock outs, go Class C.

I agree, it sucks that you cannot have every other Class R guild agree to waive the rule, but to do so would allow a dominance over the content by the rotation, and damage the potential of other guilds like Dolj who do not seek to adhere to such things, and prefer the competitive side of Class R. While I dislike how it turned out (because I truly believe AG simply made a mistake in counting), I applaud the GMs, in the case, for possibly recognizing the potential for hegemonic domination over Class R that could have occurred should they be allowed every guild that was Class R simply waive it. Guilds would be able to stomp out any competing guild that wanted to join Class R by simply ignoring the lock outs and preventing them from being considered Class R.

Originally Posted by Nietche [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's mind boggling that people who came to play the classic everquest on Project 1999 (thank you, Rogean; much pras) are quibbling about the classic experience. Go back to other MMO's. Stop ruining our land!

Project 1999 is not, and could never be a classic experience. We know too much, and it has taken too long. On the Kunark timeline, we're in Planes of Power. This is not a classic experience, and it cannot be even close to that. We have seen this server go through dupers, through a much longer time table for patches, which ultimately leads to alt build up, a heavy clustering of 60s, and much greater competition over mobs.

If anyone is under the impression that this server pre-Staff Plan was Classic, they are terribly mistaken. What we have now is far from classic, perhaps just as much as what we had before. At least with what we have now, people are able to see the content at some point and experience what they may have missed out on back in the day. More people are seeing what the fights were like, and that is a good thing for a server that runs on and appeals new players on the grounds of nostalgia.

So, all around, things like saying that this was all one person's idea, that the system is a redistribution of wealth, equating a class structure to instancing... This all reeks of RnF logic.

[Nietche]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Equating a class system to an instance is a terrible comparison.

Read!

Originally Posted by Nietche [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But we should really go back to a time when pseudo-WoW instances weren't in effect with a CSR-enforced rotation.

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The rotation was an agreement made by a wide assortment of Class R guilds, not "one person's idea".

You're wrong. One single person came up with this idea, and everyone else who currently supports it has drank the koolaid.

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They can't kill a dragon because they had previously killed it and were on lock out...I agree, it sucks that you cannot have every other Class R guild agree to waive the rule, but to do so would allow a dominance over the content by the rotation, and damage the potential of other guilds like Dolj who do not seek to adhere to such things, and prefer the competitive side of Class R.

Competition is classic. Helping other guilds is classic. Unfortunately, clamoring for a vending machine is also classic. GM-enforced rotations are not classic.

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Project 1999 is not, and could never be a classic experience.

Why couldn't it be?

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What we have now is far from classic.

Correct.

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

At least with what we have now, people are able to see the content at some point and experience what they may have missed out on back in the day. More people are seeing what the fights were like, and that is a good thing for a server that runs on and appeals new players on the grounds of nostalgia.

Anyone could see any part of this game through the lens of the classic experience on Project 1999 if they put in the work. What you're on about is that people get to see the same content but with no work.

[Clark]

This thread f-ing sucks bro no offense.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Nietche [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How is that RnF logic? I'm not the only person on the server who feels as if the "classic experience" on P99 has been muddied with rotations and the like, not to mention being forced to kill 90% of the dragons within a 1.5-day timeframe. It's basically a WoW-like lockout period.

Sure, bring on the classic. No GM raid rules; no variance.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Nietche [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Read!

Pseudo - "not genuine; sham.", Syn: "bogus, sham, phony, artificial, mock, ersatz, quasi-, fake, false, spurious, deceptive, misleading, assumed, contrived, affected, insincere;"

Attaching Pseudo to a word doesn't divorce it from the word and make everything not the word a pseudo- version of it. Saying it is a pseudo-WoW instancing is still attaching the rotation to an instance, but saying it is a phony, an artificial, a mock, a fake, a false, a deceptive, a misleading, or contrived version of an instance. But it is still defined as an instance, just a sham, lame attempt at it. An orange is not a pseudo-apple. Those fake fruits house sales people put on tables, those are pseudo-apples.

I did read.

Originally Posted by Nietche [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're wrong. One single person came up with this idea, and everyone else who currently supports it has drank the koolaid.

Based on... What? The idea of rotating mobs was not thought up by a single person, and it has been around since classic. It has been around in other forms of social distribution of resources throughout history. The idea of rotating mobs among the Class R guilds, further, could not have occurred without consent from those who have the most to gain from No rotation.

Lets just think about the logic here: If I am a profit maximizing asshole, a true to form Davos man, a Bentham utilitarian exemplar, I want what is going to give me the most at all times. If I am a guild like Bregan D'Aerth, or Taken, and so on, and I want to be the profit maximizing asshole, do I get any real benefit from a rotation?

Well, as we know, you get a kill, and you are locked out for 2 rounds. This means that Class R, as the rules are now, could be locked down by 3 strong guilds. Guild A, Guild B, Guild C. There is also Guild D, E, F, and G. But they do not have the numbers, the force, or the strength to take on that. Guild A, B, and C compete on the first spawn of Mob 1. Guild A gets it. They are now locked. Guild B and C and guild D compete on Mob 2, and C gets it. Then Guild B competes with the weaker Guild D & E to get it. So you get a rotation of A -> C -> B, and the only guilds that can compete for those mobs have to go against one of these top guilds to do it. Since A and C are not fighting over the same mob in successive attempts, comparable skill sets are not put against one another.

Now, what happened instead is that every guild in Class R decided that it was mutually beneficial to create a rotation. The higher, more powerful guilds gave up their chance at having 33% of all mobs.

The entire logic of a rotation works against you, as one single guild could not make that happen. It takes, at a minimum, one of the guilds in A/B/C to create a rotation with D/E/F/G. The very fact that the guilds in Class R that are powerful enough for this gave this up for the benefit of Class R guilds more generally is far from the act of a single individual.

Originally Posted by Nietche [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Competition is classic. Helping other guilds is classic. Unfortunately, clamoring for a vending machine is also classic. GM-enforced rotations are not classic.

"Vending machine"... And you ask how what you said was RnF? Lol. And you say other Class R guilds drink the kool-aid.

Still beside the point though, this server isn't classic. There is far too much on this server for it to be anywhere close to it. This server would need a huge enema for it to even start to resemble classic. In lieu of that, at least people can feel their nostalgia again. The competition guilds are up against in this bloated server is far from classic.

Originally Posted by Nietche [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why couldn't it be?

Because time is linear to us at the moment?

Unless you can duplicate player's ignorance, the client, the connections, the lack of available information from outside a player's mind, and make it the late 90's again, you're not going to get classic. We know too much about how this game works for it to be a genuine classic experience. We don't have to pay for a subscription allowing for people to make dozens of accounts without issue. We haven't had less than a Year in Classic and in Kunark for that content to occur.

All of this directly cuts against any chance for this server to be Classic. It allows for the server to be bloated. What we have is Pseudo-Classic. But it's better than No-Classic.

Originally Posted by Nietche [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Anyone could see any part of this game through the lens of the classic experience on Project 1999 if they put in the work. What you're on about is that people get to see the same content but with no work.

In a world where people think that accomplishing anything in EverQuest can be done with no work. There's a difference from the classic experience of grinding up to 60, joining a top raiding guild of people who were, more or less, on the same timeline on you. Now, you're grinding up and going against stuff that has been bloated for years worth of stale content.

As a quick side note, I will point out that this isn't something to be blamed on anyone, gods know the devs do great work and I offer them all the respect in the world, this is just the negative side effect.

Further, it was made rather clear that no, you wont get to see the same content with no work. That is yet another example of RnF logic, saying that it is "no" work, rather than "less" work. Those are two very different words, and they mean very different things. Being a Class R guild still comes with work. It may be "less work" (which I argue is not necessarily the case, merely a different type of work), but for that different work, you're Restricted. If you want to put in "more work", as you put it, then you can go to Class C. Additionally, if you want to stay in Restricted, you will never see Veeshan's Peak. You will never see the top of the line content.

So, again, RnF logic: "What you're on about is that people get to see the same content but with no work." It is neither the same content, nor is it no work.

That's why I commented that you were saying you were posting before RnF, but you were using RnF logic.

[Nietche]

I feel as if you agree with me, but with a lot of extra words.

[indiscriminate_hater]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Pseudo - "not genuine; sham.", Syn: "bogus, sham, phony, artificial, mock, ersatz, quasi-, fake, false, spurious, deceptive, misleading, assumed, contrived, affected, insincere;"

Attaching Pseudo to a word doesn't divorce it from the word and make everything not the word a pseudo- version of it. Saying it is a pseudo-WoW instancing is still attaching the rotation to an instance, but saying it is a phony, an artificial, a mock, a fake, a false, a deceptive, a misleading, or contrived version of an instance. But it is still defined as an instance, just a sham, lame attempt at it. An orange is not a pseudo-apple. Those fake fruits house sales people put on tables, those are pseudo-apples.

I did read.



Based on... What? The idea of rotating mobs was not thought up by a single person, and it has been around since classic. It has been around in other forms of social distribution of resources throughout history. The idea of rotating mobs among the Class R guilds, further, could not have occurred without consent from those who have the most to gain from No rotation.

Lets just think about the logic here: If I am a profit maximizing asshole, a true to form Davos man, a Bentham utilitarian exemplar, I want what is going to give me the most at all times. If I am a guild like Bregan D'Aerth, or Taken, and so on, and I want to be the profit maximizing asshole, do I get any real benefit from a rotation?

Well, as we know, you get a kill, and you are locked out for 2 rounds. This means that Class R, as the rules are now, could be locked down by 3 strong guilds. Guild A, Guild B, Guild C. There is also Guild D, E, F, and G. But they do not have the numbers, the force, or the strength to take on that. Guild A, B, and C compete on the first spawn of Mob 1. Guild A gets it. They are now locked. Guild B and C and guild D compete on Mob 2, and C gets it. Then Guild B competes with the weaker Guild D & E to get it. So you get a rotation of A -> C -> B, and the only guilds that can compete for those mobs have to go against one of these top guilds to do it. Since A and C are not fighting over the same mob in successive attempts, comparable skill sets are not put against one another.

Now, what happened instead is that every guild in Class R decided that it was mutually beneficial to create a rotation. The higher, more powerful guilds gave up their chance at having 33% of all mobs.

The entire logic of a rotation works against you, as one single guild could not make that happen. It takes, at a minimum, one of the guilds in A/B/C to create a rotation with D/E/F/G. The very fact that the guilds in Class R that are powerful enough for this gave this up for the benefit of Class R guilds more generally is far from the act of a single individual.



"Vending machine"... And you ask how what you said was RnF? Lol. And you say other Class R guilds drink the kool-aid.

Still beside the point though, this server isn't classic. There is far too much on this server for it to be anywhere close to it. This server would need a huge enema for it to even start to resemble classic. In lieu of that, at least people can feel their nostalgia again. The competition guilds are up against in this bloated server is far from classic.



Because time is linear to us at the moment?

Unless you can duplicate player's ignorance, the client, the connections, the lack of available information from outside a player's mind, and make it the late 90's again, you're not going to get classic. We know too much about how this game works for it to be a genuine classic experience. We don't have to pay for a subscription allowing for people to make dozens of accounts without issue. We haven't had less than a Year in Classic and in Kunark for that content to occur.

All of this directly cuts against any chance for this server to be Classic. It allows for the server to be bloated. What we have is Pseudo-Classic. But it's better than No-Classic.



In a world where people think that accomplishing anything in EverQuest can be done with no work. There's a difference from the classic experience of grinding up to 60, joining a top raiding guild of people who were, more or less, on the same timeline on you. Now, you're grinding up and going against stuff that has been bloated for years worth of stale content.

As a quick side note, I will point out that this isn't something to be blamed on anyone, gods know the devs do great work and I offer them all the respect in the world, this is just the negative side effect.

Further, it was made rather clear that no, you wont get to see the same content with no work. That is yet another example of RnF logic, saying that it is "no" work, rather than "less" work. Those are two very different words, and they mean very different things. Being a Class R guild still comes with work. It may be "less work" (which I argue is not necessarily the case, merely a different type of work), but for that different work, you're Restricted. If you want to put in "more work", as you put it, then you can go to Class C. Additionally, if you want to stay in Restricted, you will never see Veeshan's Peak. You will never see the top of the line content.

So, again, RnF logic: "What you're on about is that people get to see the same content but with no work." It is neither the same content, nor is it no work.

That's why I commented that you were saying you were posting before RnF, but you were using RnF logic.

^ fat

[Uteunayr]

From your first post, you are negative about what we have now relative to what went on pre-raid agreement. I am quite positive, all things considered. You pin this all on a single person, and I say it is a collective effort on the part of numerous actors as a single actor could not, in any way, force what is going on in Class R. We disagree on a number of key points, and they should be more than apparent from the recent posts. Hence, the reason for writing them. From what was written, I think the most we have agreed on, baring gaming ontological differences, is the challenges the server faces emulating classic.

[Jay F Kay]

I see a lot of people seem to refer to "handouts" and the all powerful "Loot vending machine" (can someone tell me where this is?) while talking about class R. I think we all seem to forget that the prerequisite for obtaining loot is being able to kill that which drops it; Not a competition of who has the most jobless people able to sit around and track at all hours (we all know who the winner is there). Perhaps velious will alleviate the issue once things become more difficult, but for the moment, all of us are stepping up to the same 32khp "vending machine" regardless of class.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Jay F Kay [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I see a lot of people seem to refer to "handouts" and the all powerful "Loot vending machine" (can someone tell me where this is?) while talking about class R. I think we all seem to forget that the prerequisite for obtaining loot is being able to kill that which drops it; Not a competition of who has the most jobless people able to sit around and track at all hours (we all know who the winner is there). Perhaps velious will alleviate the issue once things become more difficult, but for the moment, all of us are stepping up to the same 32khp "vending machine" regardless of class.

I said the exact same thing when they were debating the class system. But this is the Internet. And much like Fox News, on the Internet your logic and reasoning have no place. Just repetition of warped realities that you believe you live in.