Solo Barbarian Shaman Stat Allocation

[ArbiterBlixen]

Don’t listen to loramin. Wis is absolutely the way to go.

It’s going to be a difference of 75hp and very likely nearly 300 mana.

If you’re in pre raid gear, like loramin is in, most if not all 25 of that wis will be sub 200. Meaning 12mana per wis.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by ArbiterBlixen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Don’t listen to loramin. Wis is absolutely the way to go.

It’s going to be a difference of 75hp and very likely nearly 300 mana.

If you’re in pre raid gear, like loramin is in, most if not all 25 of that wis will be sub 200. Meaning 12mana per wis.

And what good will that extra mana do you in a high-end fight?

I don't mean that in a "do you even solo bro?" way [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I truly mean: have you soloed WW dragons, or A4 PoM, or any similar tough spot (eg. I know people like to do efreetii in Sol B)? Because if we're talking about killing geonids or something, let's be honest: at 60, with Torpor, your gear basically doesn't matter.

But if you're doing something hard, what matters is "can you live long enough to land a slow" ... and more mana won't help at all with that (you'll run out of HP long before you run out of mana). Once the mob is slowed, you're set on mana (thanks to Torpor and Cannabalize), so your starting max is irrelevant.

[ArbiterBlixen]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And what good will that extra mana do you in a high-end fight?

I don't mean that in a "do you even solo bro?" way [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I truly mean: have you soloed WW dragons, or A4 PoM, or any similar tough spot (eg. I know people like to do efreetii in Sol B)? Because if we're talking about killing geonids or something, let's be honest: at 60, with Torpor, your gear basically doesn't matter.

But if you're doing something hard, what matters is "can you live long enough to land a slow" ... and more mana won't help at all with that (you'll run out of HP long before you run out of mana). Once the mob is slowed, you're set on mana (thanks to Torpor and Cannabalize), so your starting max is irrelevant.

First let me say. None of the "tough spots" you listed are remotely hard. But that's besides the point. 300 mana is better than 75hp for a shaman. Objectively.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by ArbiterBlixen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

First let me say. None of the "tough spots" you listed are remotely hard.

Where do you consider to be a "tough Shaman solo spot" then?

Originally Posted by ArbiterBlixen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But that's besides the point. 300 mana is better than 75hp for a shaman. Objectively.

That's like saying "200 Dexterity is better than 75hp, objectively, because 200 is a bigger number than 75". You can say it, but it doesn't make it true: hit points are more useful to a Shaman than Dexterity ... or mana.

[ArbiterBlixen]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Where do you consider to be a "tough Shaman solo spot" then?

They just aren't hard. They have torpor as a minimum req. That's about it. And I really just mean that from a gear check perspective, cause clicking malo, slow, topor and canni doesn't take skill per se. But a tough solo would be something like Sebilite Protector. The ones you listed are things 99% of torpor shamans can do.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's like saying "200 Dexterity is better than 75hp, objectively, because 200 is a bigger number than 75". You can say it, but it doesn't make it true: hit points are more useful to a Shaman than Dexterity ... or mana.

Two most important stats for a shaman are Hp and Mana.

There is a threshold where one can make the argument you're making. You speak of survival till slow. So then is 1hp better than 300mana? that 1hp could save you long enough for slow to land. Is it 2hp? 3hp? Where is the threshold? I believe it's higher than 75hp. I could see the argument for 200hp vs 300mana depending on the rest of your gear. 75hp isn't it.

Also with the disparity between 300mana to 75hp, have you considered that gives our shaman some flexibility in item selection?

[loramin]

Originally Posted by ArbiterBlixen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They just aren't hard. They have torpor as a minimum req. That's about it. And I really just mean that from a gear check perspective, cause clicking malo, slow, topor and canni doesn't take skill per se. But a tough solo would be something like Sebilite Protector. The ones you listed are things 99% of torpor shamans can do.

I'd think it'd be obvious, but I guess I have to say it: isn't that the OP more likely to do what "99% of other torpor shamans do" than what 1% of them do?

Originally Posted by ArbiterBlixen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Two most important stats for a shaman are Hp and Mana.

There is a threshold where one can make the argument you're making. You speak of survival till slow. So then is 1hp better than 300mana? that 1hp could save you long enough for slow to land. Is it 2hp? 3hp? Where is the threshold? I believe it's higher than 75hp. I could see the argument for 200hp vs 300mana depending on the rest of your gear. 75hp isn't it.

Also with the disparity between 300mana to 75hp, have you considered that gives our shaman some flexibility in item selection?

You haven't actually addressed anything I've said. Again, do you actually solo as a shaman, and if so tell me: A) where do you fight, and B) wherever you fight, is the hard part living long enough to land a slow, or is the hard part having enough mana to win the fight?

[ArbiterBlixen]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd think it'd be obvious, but I guess I have to say it: isn't that the OP more likely to do what "99% of other torpor shamans do" than what 1% of them do?

I literally said it was besides the point. So no, you don't have to say it, just read better next time.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You haven't actually addressed anything I've said. Again, do you actually solo as a shaman, and if so tell me: where do you fight, and when you fight something is the hard part living long enough to land a slow, or is the hard part having enough mana to win the fight?

So a fight against Sebilite Protector for example. You are going to want that mana. He has really high MR so root doesn't last more than a few seconds, and he could take 4-7 slow attempts on average. You won't be able to torpor and you really can't stand and take hits.

Anyway this is mostly irrelevant.

I think a better take away is that the 300 mana will give you flexibility in item selection that would yield you more overall Hp and Mana anyway.

[Siberious]

A barb shaman in group content gear + lower end raid gear in a maybe a couple slots can reach 205 sta unbuffed without putting all their starting points there. Just check out the wiki and filter it for +sta or +hp per slot and look through till you see group content/EC gear that has a solid balance.

It's seems Loramin chose not to get good group content gear in plenty of your slots, let alone +hp gear (if his magelo is still accurate, see below). So it makes sense that he can't self buff to max stamina. Which isn't a knock on him, gear how you want, but he could very easily get to 205 stamina unbuffed with a few modifications to his gear.

I'd be putting it in wisdom all day to start with 105 sta and 105 wisdom. It allows you to maintain a solid mana pool while focusing on +hp +sta gear primarily (plenty of it doesn't have +wis or +mana) that ideally has some +mana when you can without sacrificing too many hps. You will need an okay mana pool even when a mob is slowed so that you can maintain via canni dance, reslow, while also ideally swapping in another dot besides epic on occasion (Or can just JBB spam instead).

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Loramin

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Siberious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A barb shaman in group content gear + lower end raid gear in a maybe a couple slots can reach 205 sta unbuffed without putting all their starting points there. Just check out the wiki and filter it for +sta or +hp per slot and look through till you see group content/EC gear that has a solid balance.

It's seems Loramin chose not to get good group content gear in plenty of your slots, let alone +hp gear (if his magelo is still accurate, see below). So it makes sense that he can't self buff to max stamina. Which isn't a knock on him, gear how you want, but he could very easily get to 205 stamina unbuffed with a few modifications to his gear.

I'd be putting it in wisdom all day to start with 105 sta and 105 wisdom. It allows you to maintain a solid mana pool while focusing on +hp +sta gear primarily (plenty of it doesn't have +wis or +mana) that ideally has some +mana when you can without sacrificing too many hps. You will need an okay mana pool even when a mob is slowed so that you can maintain via canni dance, reslow, while also ideally swapping in another dot besides epic on occasion (Or can just JBB spam instead).

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Loramin

You're right: I'm not single-mindedly only going for Stamina gear ... and I don't think most Shaman are either.

There are clickies (goblin earing, epic, JBB), raw HP, FT, regen ... and yes, even mana and Wisdom. Most people are not just going to get +Stamina gear at the exclusion of all other gear ... which makes it all more likely they'll never hit the Stamina cap unless they do high-end raid targets.

Meanwhile, you've yet to suggest an encounter where more mana would help more than more HP. ArbiterBlixen at least did that:

Originally Posted by ArbiterBlixen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So a fight against Sebilite Protector for example. You are going to want that mana. He has really high MR so root doesn't last more than a few seconds, and he could take 4-7 slow attempts on average. You won't be able to torpor and you really can't stand and take hits.

I've never soloed a Sebilite Protector, so maybe he's the one exception, but I still doubt it just based on rough math.

Let's go with the upper end of your estimate, and say it takes 7 slow attempts to slow the guy. Turgur's Insects takes 250 mana per cast, so that's 1750 mana. Presumably, you drop a Malo at the start for 350 more, for a total of 2100 mana. I did not focus on Wisdom/Mana on Loramin, but even so I have 2832 max mana unbuffed, which is enough to cast a malo plus seven slows, and still have 700+ mana left.

But, Malo has a 5 second cast time and Turgur's has a 3 second, so in that whole scenario we're talking 26 seconds of time the Shaman's being beaten on ... plus all the recast time I'm too lazy to calculate, plus more time from fizzles and interrupts ... let's just round to an even half a minute.

Per the wiki, Sebilite Protector hits for 260 - 555 "twice per round", which I guess means every tick/six seconds? So that's 407.5 * 2 = 815 average damage per tick, which means that in a 30-second fight he'll deal on average 4075 damage.

For reference, Loramin has 2392 max unbuffed HP, and I have at least somewhat tried to focus on HP. So again, I submit that more Stamina/HP is going to help you survive long enough to get the Protector slowed than having more Wisdom/Mana.

But to be fair, it sounds like you're mitigating damage with root, so I'd love to hear your (more accurate) numbers.

Originally Posted by ArbiterBlixen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Anyway this is mostly irrelevant.

I think a better take away is that the 300 mana will give you flexibility in item selection that would yield you more overall Hp and Mana anyway.

As I just listed above, there's lots of things a Shaman should want in their gear. In my experience, all those things do more for a (non-raid) Shaman than having a larger mana pool ... except maybe Protector [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[ArbiterBlixen]

So yeah, against prot you wouldn’t be face up trying to slow. With any level of gear a shaman would be rooting for slow attempts. Loramin would be dead before getting 3 slow attempts in. And likely wouldn’t be able to stabilize even after slow.

As far as mana vs hp, it doesn’t really have to be either or. As i mentioned it would provide you flexibility in item selection.

As an example, you use:

Runed Coldain Prayer Shawl, which yields 84 mana and 21hp

A random ec item like,

Chokidai Hide Pauldrons would yield 100hp

As you can see, even if you view mana and hp equally, Rune Coldain Prayer Shawl provides 105 points of stats. Greater than the pauldrons of just 100 points.

But with our starting stat allocation of 25sta vs 25wis the distribution looks like this:

Runed Coldain Prayer Shawl: 84mana and 96hp (chose sta)
Chokidai Hide Pauldrons: 300mana and 100hp (chose wis)

I know you said other stats matter too (Resists) and i agree, but the versatility extends to whatever stats you want. It’s just value that you can’t duplicate with a stamina selection.