Mage pets

[Dreenk317]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I just don't find that that makes for a satisfying explanation of the very large delta.

It might explain part, but again, everyone started out wanting to charm, not distract monsters. It took some systemic force, beyond just "no Youtube", to guide them all into being mezzbots, and not solo charmers or group charmers. Whatever that force was, it's clearly absent here.

On my server, your whole group of 6 people were lucky to find a camp of 5 mobs to kill. Often saw groups content with 3 mobs only in a dungeon somewhere. Often camps weren't properly broken, and multiple mobs
would spawn close together, requiring CC.

It was just so busy back then, all the time. That, in my experience, I can recall multiple times that we asked the enchanter not to charm because it reduced our groups exp by holding up one of the spawns.

I'm not saying this is the reason, but it's a reason. Camps on p99 are much larger, containing, often, 10+ mobs, spawn timers are tracked, and a broken camp requires much less CC. So, here, on p99, enchanters can afford to charm in more ways than one, vs what was affordable on live.

[Sillyturtle]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I just don't find that that makes for a satisfying explanation of the very large delta.

It might explain part, but again, everyone started out wanting to charm, not distract monsters. It took some systemic force, beyond just "no Youtube", to guide them all into being mezzbots, and not solo charmers or group charmers. Whatever that force was, it's clearly absent here.

Maybe it’s a combination of things like that and what the free kick posted above me. Rule 528 could just be lots of little social things coupled with no YouTube and lack of easily accessible information that grew into a widespread “charm is bad” mentality.

That could be totallly wrong though and you could very definitely be right. That other guy you e been arguing with is a fucking asshole for speaking to you that way. Fuck him. No reason to act like that just because you disagree with someone.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I just don't find that that makes for a satisfying explanation of the very large delta.

It might explain part, but again, everyone started out wanting to charm, not distract monsters. It took some systemic force, beyond just "no Youtube", to guide them all into being mezzbots, and not solo charmers or group charmers. Whatever that force was, it's clearly absent here.

I editted down to a TLDR of the entire debate:

You can refuse to be convinced by this. But you literally just keep running in circles with your ONE argument even as multiple reasonable explanations, some actual hard evidence, and some examples that don't work out the way you'd expect based on your logic, are all put forward. Every time one or two reasons are given, you ignore them and repeat yourself, and that's without even addressing the fact that over the course of time on here with people debating about charm, there have been like a dozen+ reasonable explanations for why charm was used differently on live than currently and that none of them have really been refuted. And those reasons aren't individual, they're cumulative.

No youtube, bad early experiences with charm, no knowledge of GCD, bad word of mouth from early charm experiences, old internet connections and computers, scarcity of mobs, general MMO noobiness, early mechanics that favored other methods (animations didn't steal exp, WTYH was OP as fuck, invis didn't break charm), relatively few enchanters playing at all let alone seriously trying charm out.... all those things add up to an enormous, "systemtic" force working against a large number of people figuring out charm back in the day.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Sillyturtle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That other guy you e been arguing with is a fucking asshole for speaking to you that way. Fuck him. No reason to act like that just because you disagree with someone.

No you're a towel!

[derpcake2]

I wonder how many other threads Loramin is going to create or derail trying to get his feels-based agenda implemented.

[bum3]

Originally Posted by tommydgun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ill give you a chanter with a rogue pet is the most damage, but im sorry your guild rogues dont backstab hard... SBD isnt the best backstab weapon in the game, i personally use a gloomwater harpoon and have 220 str buffed

I appreciate you admitting a caster is out dpsing you.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No youtube, bad early experiences with charm, no knowledge of GCD, bad word of mouth from early charm experiences, old internet connections and computers, scarcity of mobs, general MMO noobiness, early mechanics that favored other methods (animations didn't steal exp, WTYH was OP as fuck, invis didn't break charm), relatively few enchanters playing at all let alone seriously trying charm out.... all those things add up to an enormous, "systemtic" force working against a large number of people figuring out charm back in the day.

"Bad early experiences with charm" and "bad word of mouth from early charm experiences" are no different here than on live. And "relatively few enchanters playing at all let alone seriously trying charm out"? We're talking about literally multiple thousands of players.

Yes, I get that there was no Youtube, but there were class forums. As I've said before, even without Youtube Shaman knew how to cann dance back then. That required casting a spell on your list and timing it to coincide with a server mechanic. Charming is just casting a spell (and casting another to break it later): it's not rocket science.

Similarly you don't need GCD (or Gob ring) to use charm effectively; it's just not as effective without them. Their benefits are even less pronounced in groups, yet very few Enchanters even charmed in groups on live (when they had a healer).

Look, you're missing the point, my "one point" against you're many. I'm saying the math doesn't add up, and you're listing lots of variables.

I'm saying our delta is Enchanters going from being ranked one of the worst classes in the game DPS-wise, to the uncontroversial best here. That's a very large delta on the right side of the equation.

On the left you have different variables like say: time/player knowledge (A), internet connection speed (B), and differences between emulated mechanics and live ones (C).

What I keep repeating is very simple: A + B does not add up to that amazingly huge delta vs. live. You can divide A and B into however many subvariables you want, and altogether they might account for a delta of 4, maybe 5 classes, eg. Enchanters formerly being the 6th-best DPS on live, but here they're the 2nd-best.

But from bottom to top, only because of A and B? I just find that a difficult idea to swallow: I think there's got to be a C.

Remember, this is supposed to be about classic EQ. If you grabbed a player from 1999, and told them "hey we have this server, it's just like your's, but Warriors can bind wounds during combat and Bards can kill an entire zone at once", they'd look at you and say "no, that's not like our server". They wouldn't say "wow your players must be smarter to have figured that out" or "you must have a fast connection": they'd say "that sounds a bad emulation".

But both those things were supposedly mechanically possible back then. No one remembers them, but they were defended here for a long time as "people were just dumb back then and didn't know how". It wasn't that: no one remembered combat bind wounds, bards doing all of OT, or Enchanters even being in the top tier, let alone being the top DPS, because that wasn't how Live was.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your entire argument seems to be "if charm mechanics were the same on live as they are on p99, then it would have been widely known how powerful charm is. Nobody could have been playing with the mechanics we have today without realizing how to take advantage of them."

And that argument is proven to be horrible when I demonstrate how, even WITH the p99 mechanics, it wasn't widely known how to use a chanter for at least a couple years of blue's existence... and that it was only after a number of enchanters showed, very publicly, what chanters were capable of, that it started to be common knowledge.

You "agreeing to disagree" in face of that is you "being obtuse."


And this is ignoring the classic-era charm tests that have been discussed around here recently, classic-era guides that go into detail about how powerful charm, accepted fact that many things that make charming easier today weren't widely practiced back in the day (primarily GCD resets). And this is ignoring the fact that your argument is disproved by other things; GCD resets are incredibly strong and were present in classic and known of by some people... but they still weren't common knowledge then (and still weren't on P99 for years and years, iirc). This all just goes even further to support my position here. And all you've got is the single line of reasoning that is shot to pieces by all of this stuff.

I'll go ahead and disagree here. On Blue Launch you had Chanters Charm-DPSing right out the gate (albeit in groups/cleric duos more than soloing). But it was a common thing right out the gate.

First time I had a Charm DPS in group was lvl 20-ish FP group in Unrest. Less than a month out from Blue Launch. After I saw that I immediately took my Druid to Oasis to experiment w croc charms - I remember this clearly because I was terrible at it and thought to myself "man without heals and SOW this would be a real bitch."

[TripSin]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"Bad early experiences with charm" and "bad word of mouth from early charm experiences" are no different here than on live.

Except that's not true. It was very different back then. It was a different meta. Tecmos is correct.

[derpcake2]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I just find

Please post some kind of proof, and less find and feels.