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  #61  
Old 01-05-2022, 05:20 PM
Dolalin Dolalin is offline
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I've been going through the Enlightened Dark guild news page and cataloging all their drops.

I'm only up to May 2001 in parsing the drops so this will take some time but their page is very comprehensive and they almost always listed every drop.

Examples:

https://web.archive.org/web/20020602...s.html?month=2

Once there are some hard numbers then objective decisions can be made.
Last edited by Dolalin; 01-05-2022 at 05:41 PM..
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  #62  
Old 01-05-2022, 11:03 PM
Gorbok Gorbok is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolalin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I've been going through the Enlightened Dark guild news page and cataloging all their drops.

I'm only up to May 2001 in parsing the drops so this will take some time but their page is very comprehensive and they almost always listed every drop.

Examples:

https://web.archive.org/web/20020602...s.html?month=2

Once there are some hard numbers then objective decisions can be made.
Interesting. Sadly, though, it looks like they mostly (entirely?) stopped posting ST loot after they woke Sleeper. Their pre-awakening loot seemed kind of consistent with our loot, at least insomuch as they were complaining about a lack of 1hb and 1hp primals haha.
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  #63  
Old 01-05-2022, 11:23 PM
Croco Croco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorbok [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Interesting. Sadly, though, it looks like they mostly (entirely?) stopped posting ST loot after they woke Sleeper. Their pre-awakening loot seemed kind of consistent with our loot, at least insomuch as they were complaining about a lack of 1hb and 1hp primals haha.
If you read through the forum posts that are linked earlier in this thread though there's a guild saying they saw far more 1 hand primals than they ever did from the golems when the sleeper was still sleeping.
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  #64  
Old 02-25-2022, 08:36 AM
eisley eisley is offline
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Originally Posted by Gorbok [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Interesting. Sadly, though, it looks like they mostly (entirely?) stopped posting ST loot after they woke Sleeper. Their pre-awakening loot seemed kind of consistent with our loot, at least insomuch as they were complaining about a lack of 1hb and 1hp primals haha.
I was in Enlightened Dark and indeed, we stopped doing ST entirely after waking the sleeper. It was relegated to off-hours pickup raids. I remember trying to tank MotG on Themy. It did not go well.

That said, I did clear ST quite a bit after the changes, and it was indeed very easy. I had no issue tanking the trash on a ranger. We'd have like 6-12 people typically. I never noticed a disparity in 1h vs 2h to be honest, but I didn't pay very close attention.

(Also, I loaned Nazlug like a million plat worth of stuff on p99 a few years ago and he disappeared one day :[ )
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  #65  
Old 02-25-2022, 01:57 PM
azxten azxten is offline
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Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
If you think negative rhetoric will push me to do something you want, you're incorrect.

This issue is on a short list of content upgrades I plan on completing. It is not as simple as others; there are various mechanics features involved which require extensive effort and testing.
With all due respect sire, it is.. most unpleasant.. to be told not to bump a thread unless more information is available or a significant time has passed and then multiple years pass with no additional response.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=395711

As I've mentioned creating a new staff member position like "Lorekeeper" who filters bug reports and updates a visible status would be exceptionally helpful for those who want to contribute research and more on this forum.

This group of people can be responsible for filtering out garbage, bringing you the bug reports that are worth review, and then updating their status based on your feedback.

Potential status:

1. Open, no one has reviewed it.
2. Lorekeeper has reviewed it, garbage, not a bug, duplicate, previously discussed, etc.
2. Lorekeeper has reviewed it, needs more research.
3. Nilbog has reviewed it, needs more research.
4. Nilbog has accepted the bug as legitimate and it is part of the backlog to fix.
5. Fixed.

There seems to be a lot of effort here being wasted when people keep researching things that are on the "short list" already or get disgruntled when they can't get any response about their efforts so they just stop contributing.

I would reverse engineer the client to figure out the classic Charm code but I feel it's wasted effort until channeling gets fixed because it seems likely that such an effort might never materialize into any changes. Also what if you already have the classic Charm code figured out on your short list and I don't know? That would be a lot of wasted effort on my part.

Without adequate communication on posts and visibility into this "short list" of confirmed issues and the work needing to be done on them we have a very disjointed volunteer contribution process that leaves a lot of people feeling rejected. The indication provided here by staff is that volunteer efforts are encouraged and desired but you have to balance this with the reality of the experience of trying to contribute which gives the opposite impression that the staff would rather we didn't bother them or that we can "try" to contribute and the staff "may" bother to look at something. This disconnect is the source of a lot of those feelings.

It would be better if the messaging was more clear up front that you can't expect any kind of response or follow up but if you want to post go ahead OR if the staff would implement better management of the issues so that each contributor felt their efforts were being acknowledged.

I would again encourage you to read this sticky, "Please read before posting" on the bug forum.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19

Quote:
While a lot of you have been contributing a lot of bugs recently, which is awesome, we have a high standard of accuracy / evidence. While we don't need a congressional hearing about every bug fix, throwing us a link to something definitive from a waybacked site is the most helpful thing you can do, other than pointing our attention to the bug itself. It helps us make the change with confidence that we're doing the right thing.
Quote:
With the new round of beta testing, this is highly relevant.

Please make sure to include all the information you can about an issue.

I'm wasting a lot of time reading posts with no research or links.
What is the bar of evidence approximately and when has it been met? We don't know and almost never do you hear that it has been met. Things go from "needs more research" to "shut up I'm working on it" or "fixed in next patch" which creates a tension and negativity when you're told to dig up more research when you already have a ton of research only to later find out that some amount of research in between there wasn't needed. This is the "congressional hearing" outcome Uthgaard refers to where people just argue endlessly in bug threads about that bar and if it has been met or not. Also note the trolling in this thread of the people actually contributing research and then over the course of years you do come back and post about negative rhetoric. Threads devolve into this because of the way the forum operates. Someone who contributes research, gets told to do more research with no bar, gets told not to bump unless "significant time has passed" only to see things idle for years, gets trolled the whole time during this, is naturally going to end up in a pretty frustrated and negative place.

If you're still wasting time reading posts with inadequate research or links, and this thread must be another example since you commented it needs more research, then consider the Lorekeeper idea I mentioned above. Volunteers like Dolalin or others could filter these bug reports so you don't waste your time and can spend your time responding and reviewing the things that probably should get a review/response because people put in the effort to contribute something worthwhile. It would likely be a lot easier for you and better for volunteers if there was a go between who brought you a list of a dozen threads that were solid and you could ignore the rest and those people who made those dozen threads actually get a response and follow up in a timely matter about if they should keep researching or can consider the matter tracked and "done" on their part.

One final note on this particular change is you mention it is more difficult than others to implement. Is it possible the work could be broken down into sub tasks and into two groups where one is possible to do with the EQEmu code and the other requires access to P99 source? This would allow you to say, "Ok this is an acknowledged bug, the research is good, we (staff) have some changes we need to make but in the mean time someone should be able to adjust X, Y, and Z using EQEmu open source code please contribute those changes here if you want this to get done sooner." This would also require the staff inform people though if they decide to do X, Y, and Z themselves to avoid that duplicated effort. That could also be a matter of doing all the private source work first and then dropping a note, "We completed our changes and are working on X, Y, and Z ourselves now."
Last edited by azxten; 02-25-2022 at 02:25 PM..
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  #66  
Old 02-25-2022, 02:42 PM
azxten azxten is offline
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Oh and a separate note about the trolling.

Trolling in the bug report forum should probably warrant an immediate suspension/ban. Like I said, it upsets contributors, who in turn get frustrated and post things that upset the staff, and so on. Strict rules about posts here would probably also help things. For example, maybe no one here should even be questioning if proof is sufficient or not except staff.

All posts and comments here should require research or they should be deleted. I doubt there is any value in the "please fix this!" or "Yes, this would be awesome!" or "I don't remember it being like that on live" and so on comments. Every single comment here should have research either confirming or denying a specific bug.

If the staff needs feedback on which bugs players want fixed the most there would be more effective means to get that information than random people commenting about how much a certain bug bothers them or they wish it would be fixed.

I do all of these things I'm complaining about by the way because it's the way things are here. I post things I think were bugs with zero research and let others tell me I'm wrong and so on. It's like why not? That's the easiest way to vet a bug initially, start a discussion and see what others contribute. That kind of thing is probably better suited to the general forums though if people want to just gather feedback, memories, and so on. It's still a valuable function though just not so useful cluttering up these forums.

Lorekeeper staff member with forum mod permissions over the bug forums and an established process for updating status and communicating between volunteers/staff seems like a huge win in my opinion.
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  #67  
Old 04-27-2022, 10:17 AM
karadin karadin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
If you think negative rhetoric will push me to do something you want, you're incorrect.

This issue is on a short list of content upgrades I plan on completing. It is not as simple as others; there are various mechanics features involved which require extensive effort and testing.
Nilbog, any chance you'd be willing to humor us and give some insight on what makes something like this complicated? I figured it may have something to do with wanting to dynamically change the loot tables based on an event (sleeper awakening) rather than patching it in manually when that event occurs.

Thank you for continuing to maintain this project.
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  #68  
Old 05-17-2022, 06:38 PM
nilbog nilbog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karadin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Nilbog, any chance you'd be willing to humor us and give some insight on what makes something like this complicated? I figured it may have something to do with wanting to dynamically change the loot tables based on an event (sleeper awakening) rather than patching it in manually when that event occurs.
Because there are multiple states of the zone, these changes will require duplicate copies of the npcs created just to satisfy the change requirements. After the copies are made, then they need the proposed adjustments, then they need to have duplicated spawngroups, spawnentries, rules, lootdrops, lootdrop entries, loottables, loottable entries etc associated with them. Then that needs to be tested.

Looked into this a bit to get a scope of changes. Will start with the easiest* tasks first before getting into difficulty changes of npcs and loot table % adjustments.

Quote:
ancient sentries no longer flurry
This seems easy enough.

Quote:
No mob in ST sees invis now. Before, they all saw invis.
If this should be the case, it means pre sleeper awakening npcs will be harder in the future. Currently, the following npcs do not see invis:

a newly created sentry
an aged caretaker
a tireless servitor

If I understand this correctly, those ^ should see invis prior to sleeper awakening. After sleeper wakes, nothing in the zone should see invis?

Quote:
Primals
Research posts in this thread indicate named golems *can* drop primals prior to sleeper waking, but it was not guaranteed. And they shouldn't be guaranteed after sleeper wakes, either. Quite a nerf.

Also, I noticed newly created sentries, and tireless servitors have no loottable. Is this correct?
Last edited by nilbog; 05-18-2022 at 09:40 AM..
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  #69  
Old 05-17-2022, 10:26 PM
Tigerstyle Wutangfist Tigerstyle Wutangfist is offline
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I think the tl;dr is (1) post awakening Sleeper's Tomb mobs should be easier (less flurry, no see invis and sneak/hide); (2)Prog/MOTG/FA should drop Primal weapons more often than current; and (3)primal drop rate should be more even across weapon types.

Some citations from prior posts /external sources -

https://web.archive.org/web/20011030...c&f=4&t=000292

Quote:
September 22, 2001 07:38 PM
For example:

- Ancient sentries no longer flurry. They are trivial to kill.
- MotG is now easily slowable/cripple/etc. Before it was quite an accomplishment for 10 to 11 people to kill the MotG, now it can be killed with as few as 4 or 5 people.
- Prog is similar to MotG as far as the spell resistances. It used to require effort, now it is trivial.
- No mob in ST sees invis now. Before, they all saw invis.
Quote:
September 24, 2001 09:45 AM
Easier or not, i havent looted anything but 1 prmial 1hs, 2 primal axe and 1 primal 2hand piercing in 4 month of ST. In 1 months since Kerafrym awaken and ST been fixed, we looted more Primal 1hb and 1h piercing than we ever loot of warder. nuff said.
Quote:
September 24, 2001 01:15 PM

Regardless, every mob in ST is only a shadow of what they were before Kerafrym was released. The fact that they don't see invis now makes CR trivial which wasn't in the past. The drop rates are like 4X what they once were. Killing everything down to the Warders once netted about 1 primal weapon and 2 priceless. Now that can be gotten just from killing the sentries and MotG. We cleaned ST out (before Kerafyrm release) except for the Warders a few times and got nothing at all. Basically ST is about 1/3 the difficulty as before (if not less) and drops at least 3X the rate as before (sans Warders, of course). (MUCH) Less risk and more reward.
A few posts from Croco/others regarding current drop % showing huge disparity and lack of 1hs/1hb/1hp in that order I believe

A number of quality posts from Dolalin as always.
Last edited by Tigerstyle Wutangfist; 05-17-2022 at 10:36 PM..
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  #70  
Old 05-18-2022, 09:15 AM
nilbog nilbog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerstyle Wutangfist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
(2)Prog/MOTG/FA should drop Primal weapons more often than current;
I am confused about this. Right now, on p99, the named golems have a 100% chance of dropping a primal weapon, each time, pre sleeper waking. They have a 50% chance post sleeper waking.

According to the research posted in this thread, they should not drop primal at 100%, pre or post sleeper.

This suggests 20%.
Quote:
But to Fitten, just because the zone is easier doesn't mean we, as the guild just starting to enter it, want it that way. Sure, its easier to get primal from motg/prog now..but I for one would way rather have it back the way it was before. No warders will cut down primal a ton, since golems seem to drop primal bout 1/5 kills.
https://web.archive.org/web/20011030...c&f=4&t=000292
This suggests 100%.
Quote:
That said, we cleared all the Sentries from the zone-in to the area around the MToG and the Prog, including all the spawns inside the Prog room (basically everything from zone-in to the doors leading to the Library). We then COH'd down and took out the FA. For the effort:

MToG = 1 Primal Warsword
Prog = 1 Primal Brawlstick
FA = 1 Primal Hammer
No numbers, but possible 0% per raid, so <100%.
Quote:
The "good" thing about the 4th warder being killed is that ST becomes easier to raid - no mobs see invis, the 3 named golems drop primal (although you can still go through motg, prog, and final arb and get 0 drops)...and that's it.
Rare chance? <100%
Quote:
However, those 3 named golems (master of the guard, the proginator (or whatever), and the final arbitor) have a rare chance of dropping primal. The regular golems continue to drop priceless.
Not very common. <100%.
Quote:
The Golems can drop Primal without the Sleeper awakened. Its not very common, but we got a few Primal 2H handers and few 1H handers from Proj and FA before Sleeper was freed. The only change to the named Golems after the Sleeper is that they can no longer See Invis, their spawn time is decreased from several days to 2 days, and Prismatic Dragonscales are added to the drop tables.
Primal weapon %s of lootdrop:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerstyle Wutangfist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
(3)primal drop rate should be more even across weapon types.

Some citations from prior posts /external sources -

https://web.archive.org/web/20011030...c&f=4&t=000292

A few posts from Croco/others regarding current drop % showing huge disparity and lack of 1hs/1hb/1hp in that order I believe

A number of quality posts from Dolalin as always.
Adjusting the % of primal drops on the lootdrop itself is a next step. The weapons likely need to have equal chances of dropping post-Sleeper.
Last edited by nilbog; 05-18-2022 at 09:41 AM..
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