Rules regarding camps when someone has gotten the named spawn

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Zenren [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would have to disagree and say this is a casual game. Yes some things take time to complete, but it by no means is necessarily a hardcore game. I know many people, people with family and obligations playing this game, however I know of only about 3% of the players of this game that are controlling 99% of what goes on in the game. Truthfully I think the other 97% doesn't care or just accepts that as the norm, but my argument is that it doesn't have to be the norm. Break the hold, break the mold. Let it be a server for the majority and not the try hard minority.

What are you even talking about? At this point I’m starting to think you’re purposefully trolling because no one could describe EQ that way and actually believe it. Also you don’t seem to know which way you want to argue. Earlier you claimed that no one with responsibilities could play this game. Now you’re saying many people you know have responsibilities and play this game.

Second, there’s almost nothing in this game outside of a select few epic quests that you can’t accomplish even if you’re not in the top guild. Seriously, like almost nothing. Maybe there’s some pieces of equipment that are perma camped that you might like to acquire but none of those things are critical.

Third, simply put it sounds like you don’t like classic EQ. I think you thought you did and then you got back into it and you’re realizing you don’t. That’s fine, go play on a different server then….there are plenty. Coming here and demanding that things change is like going to a pizza place and demanding they serve you Mexican food.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What you said here is correct. The rules of the server are designed around the GENERAL play of the game. Most camps are not monopolized, and most people follow the rules. Also, the staff is volunteer, which means they CANNOT act the way the paid GMs on live act. They don't have the time, and are not getting paid. This is why they encourage players to solve their own problems in the PnP, before asking for GM help. Who knows when/if a fully volunteer GM has time to help you?

The camp owner is the first arbiter in a dispute, because in general they are the only impartial party who can break a tie/disagreement. For most camps, the people waiting in line are strangers or passing acquaintances to each other. That is why the camp owner will generally be an impartial party. They don't know anyone in line, so they have no real bias towards one person or the other. The GMs ask this of the player base, so they don't need to come out over every little disagreement. You can't ask the people arguing about who is next to impartially come to a decision, as both parties are biased towards themselves being the new camp owner. That is why arbitration exists lol. If players could solve all of their problems themselves, we wouldn't need GMs. That is why your idea of /random being the end all be all is silly. People do disagree about /random, which means you can get into a situation where neither party is willing to compromise.

I am really not sure where you are getting the idea that two people in a dispute can always resolve their issues on their own. Asking "How is asking two adults to random (without a GM) any different on that count? Two adults can /random to decide a camp just fine without a GM." is like asking why we have a Court system in most countries. The answer is simple: when two people disagree on something and are unwilling to compromise, you need an outside party to help solve the dispute. On P99 you have two options for said outside party, another player or a GM. The GMs encourage players to act as arbiters first, so they don't have to come in themselves. It is like the tiered court system in the United States. The GMs are like the high courts, and the players are like the low courts. You take your issue to the low court first, and only move it up the chain when it can't be solved there.

I agree that this rule breaks down on the RARE occasion of a monopoly, as the supposed arbiter becomes biased towards his friends. That is why some camps, like Ring 8 and Scout Roll have special rules. Those are the exceptions to the camp owner being the arbiter rule. Unless the staff decide to add and enforce new exceptions, there is no problem with camp monopolies. As you said yourself, they are pretty rare anyway. No rule set is perfect, there will always be exceptions or ways around it. You cannot claim a rule sucks simply because there are a few rare cases where it breaks down.

Throughout this discussion you keep conflating two things:

1. the system people use without GM involvement, ie. "camp holder gives to whoever he wants" (ie. "monopoly") vs. "everyone waiting in line gets a roll" (ie. "pseudo-classic")?
2. if people don't do what they're supposed to, how do we resolve it?

The answer to #1 is separate from the answer to #2! In either case it's "the GMs step in". So let's talk about #1, without mixing #2 in.

Originally Posted by Skarne [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Shamwowi you're the best. I like your posts and guides.

I also appreciate Loramin.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thanks! I appreciate Loramin too, he's a good guy.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Throughout this discussion you keep conflating two things:

1. the system people use without GM involvement, ie. "camp holder gives to whoever he wants" (ie. "monopoly") vs. "everyone waiting in line gets a roll" (ie. "pseudo-classic")?
2. if people don't do what they're supposed to, how do we resolve it?

The answer to #1 is separate from the answer to #2! In either case it's "the GMs step in". So let's talk about #1, without mixing #2 in.

They are not separate. That is the point you are missing. The PnP IS the precursor to GM action. One must happen before the other, and therefore they are linked. If we had enough GMs to handle all disputes, we wouldn't need a PnP policy. All disagreements could just go through them. But that isn't how P99 works. Our volunteer staff doesn't have time to solve every issue.

In a normal situation, this is what happens:
Person A, B, and C have a dispute. They manage to solve it themselves through whatever method they agree upon. This has nothing to do with the PnP policy, because no arbitration was needed. You don't need to enforce a specific method (i.e. /random) in this situation, because the parties involved are able to solve the issue however they deem fair. No GM action is needed.

In a less common situation, this is what happens:
Person A, B and C have a dispute. They can't solve it, so the camp owner steps in and arbitrates. Since most people follow the rules (you said it yourself), they will respect the PnP policy that promotes the camp owner to the arbiter role. The camp owner makes an impartial decision the other parties must agree upon. No GM action is needed.

In the least common situation, this is what happens:
Person A, B and C have a dispute. Either there is no camp owner at the time, or they don't listen to the camp owner. THEN it goes to a GM, because there are no arbiters around that the involved parties will listen to.

This is the entire point of the rule and PnP. The GMs have put in an extra step (and extra responsibility) on the camp owner to act as an arbiter to solve the issue before it needs to be escalated. The PnP policy only applies when a dispute cannot be resolved by the parties involved. If everybody could solve their problems without an arbiter, we wouldn't need a PnP policy at all, and GMs would only need to worry about helping people with bugs.

You yourself said 99% of camps are not monopolized. You are using the 1% exception to claim the entire rule is folly, which doesn't make sense. The rule is for the 99% of camps that are not being monopolized. And for a few camps that are HEAVILY contested, such as Ring 8 Roll and Scout Roll, they HAVE put in exceptions to this rule, because they know the camp owner would not be impartial. The rule works for 99% of camps, and for the other 1%, they have exceptions.

Just because you don't like the fact that one or two camps are monopolized without an exception does not make the whole entire rule pointless. If the GMs think those camps shouldn't be monopolized, they will add new exceptions. Ring 8 and Scout Roll prove the GMs do believe some camps are too congested to trust the camp owner to fairly arbitrate. Otherwise it is a perfectly valid strategy, and not against the rules. On a non-instanced server, scarcity is a reality players have to cope with.

[Arvan]

stop being greedy little goblins and be sharing friendly elfs problem solved

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Arvan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

stop being greedy little goblins and be sharing friendly elfs problem solved

What are you going to do about it? Add idol camp to the draft week?

[Arvan]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What are you going to do about it? Add idol camp to the draft week?

What are you going to do about it?

[Zenren]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What are you even talking about? At this point I’m starting to think you’re purposefully trolling because no one could describe EQ that way and actually believe it. Also you don’t seem to know which way you want to argue. Earlier you claimed that no one with responsibilities could play this game. Now you’re saying many people you know have responsibilities and play this game.

Second, there’s almost nothing in this game outside of a select few epic quests that you can’t accomplish even if you’re not in the top guild. Seriously, like almost nothing. Maybe there’s some pieces of equipment that are perma camped that you might like to acquire but none of those things are critical.

Third, simply put it sounds like you don’t like classic EQ. I think you thought you did and then you got back into it and you’re realizing you don’t. That’s fine, go play on a different server then….there are plenty. Coming here and demanding that things change is like going to a pizza place and demanding they serve you Mexican food.

I still agree the vast majority have no responsibilities (60-70%). I can't name the number of people I know retired, unemployed, or on disability that play this game. However I've never described Everquest as "hardcore", rather it's a time sink. You don't need to be particularly intelligent to play well, most of the mechanics are fairly straight forward. With that said I have a lot of friends in the game with family, jobs, and responsibilities that play. They might not get from 1-50 in two weeks like the try-hards, but they play. Something can be more than one thing at the same time. My point was that the argument that these people camping were performing some arduous task only fit for the dedicated try-hard isn't true. A lot of casuals are willing to set a timer and camp a spot if it's something they need or can sell to buy something they need, however they aren't given that opportunity because 3% of the people playing are the uber try-hards that just take those spots 24/7, because this game seems to be their primary responsibility. My suggestion again is to rotate those camps, don't let the same account sit at the same spawn for eternity. Break the hold, break the mold.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Zenren [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A lot of casuals are willing to set a timer and camp a spot if it's something they need or can sell to buy something they need, however they aren't given that opportunity because 3% of the people playing are the uber try-hards that just take those spots 24/7, because this game seems to be their primary responsibility. My suggestion again is to rotate those camps, don't let the same account sit at the same spawn for eternity. Break the hold, break the mold.

Oh, are you still pretending like idol is a camp you need? Or am I right that you just want to sell idols to the guilds that use them? You did mention selling the item, so I'm guessing that that's all this thread is about:

Someone bitching that they can't get idols to sell to raiding guilds.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Zenren [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I still agree the vast majority have no responsibilities (60-70%). I can't name the number of people I know retired, unemployed, or on disability that play this game. However I've never described Everquest as "hardcore", rather it's a time sink. You don't need to be particularly intelligent to play well, most of the mechanics are fairly straight forward. With that said I have a lot of friends in the game with family, jobs, and responsibilities that play. They might not get from 1-50 in two weeks like the try-hards, but they play. Something can be more than one thing at the same time. My point was that the argument that these people camping were performing some arduous task only fit for the dedicated try-hard isn't true. A lot of casuals are willing to set a timer and camp a spot if it's something they need or can sell to buy something they need, however they aren't given that opportunity because 3% of the people playing are the uber try-hards that just take those spots 24/7, because this game seems to be their primary responsibility. My suggestion again is to rotate those camps, don't let the same account sit at the same spawn for eternity. Break the hold, break the mold.

Again, this is classic EQ. If you don’t like classic EQ go play somewhere else.

If you want to farm platinum (I.e. farm idols to sell) there are plenty of places you can do that

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah Zenren at this point should just come out and say he wants camp rotations for whatever camp(s) he wants lol. He won't get it, but that is his opinion. He really shouldn't be playing this game if he wants uncontested easy loot. That is not P99. Non-instanced servers are designed around scarcity and player cooperation.

It is factually incorrect that most good camps are monopolized by a few people. "Casual" players can camp most items just fine. Even super lucrative camps like Fungi Tunic are not camped all the time. You can certainly get a group and go down there if it is not currently taken. Zenren is obviously talking about a specific camp that he is annoyed about, probably Shiny Brass Idol or maybe Scepter of the Forlorn. I am not sure why he cares so much about these camps, as those items aren't really necessary for casual play.

Sure, Shiny Brass Idol can save your life, but if you are a casual, you are probably playing in a zone where it is easy to get a cleric to your corpse. It isn't really necessary, and there are other life saving items out there that are better, like WC cap. Scepter of the Forlorn can be cool if you need snare on specific mobs as a casual, but there are other easy to get items like https://wiki.project1999.com/Ball_of_Burlap_Yarn that aren't perma-camped. Scepter is useful in raids due to it's instant cast, but Ball of Burlap Yarn has the superior snare, and it isn't lore.

If you are simply trying to sell the item because it is easy to camp, then you are out of luck lol. There are plenty of places in P99 to farm money. Idol camp honestly isn't that great money-wise unless you get really lucky. If you are getting 1 idol every 3 hours (which is pretty good for that camp), you are making like 200pp an hour, not including sell time. You can make 250pp an hour roughly just killing guards for fine steel weapons, and you get experience to boot if you are in the level range, whereas Shiny Brass Idol is a low level monster.

Finally, calling P99 a casual game is just silly. What are you comparing it to? If you are trying to say Everquest wasn't the toughest MMO during the early 2000s, I would agree with you. If your standard of casual player is someone from the year 2000, then yeah casual players back then were more hardcore than players today. If you compare P99 to modern MMO's, it is a hardcore game. The definition of casual gamer has changed over the years, and points more towards convenience and time saving. Everquest has neither of those things lol. Difficulty is not the only factor when considering if a game is casual friendly or not. Again, look at Dark Souls, which people consider more hardcore. It isn't actually as tough as everyone says it is, it just takes more practice than other games to get the hang of it. P99 is similar. While it isn't that difficult once you learn the game, the initial learning curve is quite steep, and can be very time consuming. Most casual players in 2022 who have never played Everquest before would not want to play P99.