Rules regarding camps when someone has gotten the named spawn

[loramin]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, this is classic EQ. If you don’t like classic EQ go play somewhere else.

As we already established, in "classic EQ" there were no monopolies. Monopolies are 100% an unclassic P99 thing.

And to Alarti's point, the Idol camp is not the only P99 monopoly. Another example would be the CE camp in Seb, which was monopolized for weeks on Green by a guild.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They are not separate. That is the point you are missing. The PnP IS the precursor to GM action. One must happen before the other, and therefore they are linked. If we had enough GMs to handle all disputes, we wouldn't need a PnP policy. All disagreements could just go through them. But that isn't how P99 works. Our volunteer staff doesn't have time to solve every issue.

In a normal situation, this is what happens:
Person A, B, and C have a dispute. They manage to solve it themselves through whatever method they agree upon. This has nothing to do with the PnP policy, because no arbitration was needed. You don't need to enforce a specific method (i.e. /random) in this situation, because the parties involved are able to solve the issue however they deem fair. No GM action is needed.

In a less common situation, this is what happens:
Person A, B and C have a dispute. They can't solve it, so the camp owner steps in and arbitrates. Since most people follow the rules (you said it yourself), they will respect the PnP policy that promotes the camp owner to the arbiter role. The camp owner makes an impartial decision the other parties must agree upon. No GM action is needed.

In the least common situation, this is what happens:
Person A, B and C have a dispute. Either there is no camp owner at the time, or they don't listen to the camp owner. THEN it goes to a GM, because there are no arbiters around that the involved parties will listen to.

This is the entire point of the rule and PnP. The GMs have put in an extra step (and extra responsibility) on the camp owner to act as an arbiter to solve the issue before it needs to be escalated. The PnP policy only applies when a dispute cannot be resolved by the parties involved. If everybody could solve their problems without an arbiter, we wouldn't need a PnP policy at all, and GMs would only need to worry about helping people with bugs.

You yourself said 99% of camps are not monopolized. You are using the 1% exception to claim the entire rule is folly, which doesn't make sense. The rule is for the 99% of camps that are not being monopolized. And for a few camps that are HEAVILY contested, such as Ring 8 Roll and Scout Roll, they HAVE put in exceptions to this rule, because they know the camp owner would not be impartial. The rule works for 99% of camps, and for the other 1%, they have exceptions.

Just because you don't like the fact that one or two camps are monopolized without an exception does not make the whole entire rule pointless. If the GMs think those camps shouldn't be monopolized, they will add new exceptions. Ring 8 and Scout Roll prove the GMs do believe some camps are too congested to trust the camp owner to fairly arbitrate. Otherwise it is a perfectly valid strategy, and not against the rules. On a non-instanced server, scarcity is a reality players have to cope with.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Seriously, you have got to learn to express your ideas without writing essays. This will be my last response to you unless you can write forum posts like a human and not like a NY Times column.

But to your point, you've still failed to show how either system requires more GM involvement. And switching to a random system would have a much bigger bonus than just eliminating monopolies:

It would make this place more classic!

(which, if you look in the upper-left corner, is the entire goal of P99).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As we already established, in "classic EQ" there were no monopolies. Monopolies are 100% an unclassic P99 thing.

And to Alarti's point, the Idol camp is not the only P99 monopoly. Another example would be the CE camp in Seb, which was monopolized for weeks on Green by a guild.

Seriously, you have got to learn to express your ideas without writing essays. This will be my last response to you unless you can write forum posts like a human and not like a NY Times column.

But to your point, you've still failed to show how either system requires more GM involvement. And switching to a random system would have a much bigger bonus than just eliminating monopolies:

It would make this place more classic!

(which, if you look in the upper-left corner, is the entire goal of P99).

Firstly, claiming monopolies are not classic is basically irrelevant, as P99 is not classic. The only reason why monopolies weren't as common on live was because people had less knowledge of the game as to what items were good or bad, and expansions were coming out fast enough to where people had to move on to the next best camps anyway. As more and more camps came online, and items in general became more homogenous, there was no point in perma-camping something. Since P99 is time locked to the first two expansions 20 years later, people have to work with the limited camps and good items we have available. P99 also has custom (non classic) raiding rules that make certain items more desirable than they would have been on live.

Secondly, adding one more camp to the like 5 camps that are monopolized isn't helping your case. As you said yourself, 99% of camps are not monopolized, so whether that number is 5 camps or 6, it isn't generally a problem, and Shiny Brass Idol isn't even that great of an item outside of raiding lol. The camp owner rule is designed for the 99% of camps that aren't monopolized, I am really not sure how you can miss this obvious point, other than willful ignorance.

Thirdly, I have not failed at all. You have simply admitted you have not been reading my posts, which has been pretty obvious to be honest. Please don't bother chiming in to a conversation if you can't be bothered to participate, it just makes you look silly. You yourself have given all the evidence needed to prove my point that the camp owner rule is valid, you just don't want to see it because you simply don't like the rule. You can certainly have that opinion, but you are wrong[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Finally, it is not possible to write complex ideas into a few terse sentences. Why? Because human beings can interpret words in many different ways. It is why people write books, rather than sentences lol. The more descriptive and clear I can be, the better you will understand my point. If you can't be bothered to read, why bother to post? Your post based on half-read, half-understood knowledge is basically going to be nonsensical most of the time.

EDIT: Also, I think you missed my entire point. The PnP is designed to avoid GM involvement. That is why you don't get GM involvement lol. But because the PnP is designed to try and avoid GM involvement, you cannot fully separate it from the idea of GM involvement, as you have been trying so hard to do. That is why the camp owner arbiter rule exists, the camp owner acts in place of a GM to try and avoid GM involvement.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As we already established, in "classic EQ" there were no monopolies. Monopolies are 100% an unclassic P99 thing.

And to Alarti's point, the Idol camp is not the only P99 monopoly. Another example would be the CE camp in Seb, which was monopolized for weeks on Green by a guild.


[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Seriously, you have got to learn to express your ideas without writing essays. This will be my last response to you unless you can write forum posts like a human and not like a NY Times column.

But to your point, you've still failed to show how either system requires more GM involvement. And switching to a random system would have a much bigger bonus than just eliminating monopolies:

It would make this place more classic!

(which, if you look in the upper-left corner, is the entire goal of P99).

Um no you’re actually completely wrong. As usual you state your own opinions as fact. I fielded plenty of petitions when I was CSR in era complaining about someone monopolizing a camp for very long periods of time.

What you didn’t have in era were so many different camps being monopolized. You didn’t have the raid meta that we do today so there were many camps that no one bothered monopolizing

[Zenren]

So here's how these camps work now...

"Just got my idol, someone come out and replace me."
"I'll be right there."
"Cool. There's some <whatever guild I don't like> scrub here right now, so hurry it up."
"I'm here."
In chat- Sorry man he had the camp after me.

How is that fair? There should be a list for these camps like every other camp. If you leave the next person on that list should get the camp. You should have to declare when someone messages you who is next in line and if you fail to within a timely manner, then they automatically get the spot when you leave. You should not be able to hand down a camp in perpetuity, never giving another person/guild a chance at that camp. This is the fair way to manage a camp and there should also be a time limit for how long you can remain at a camp farming. You should not be able to stay til your bags are full if the item is needed by a lot of people. Monopolies are not classic and were never intended to happen, regardless of how the game is today.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Zenren [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So here's how these camps work now...

"Just got my idol, someone come out and replace me."
"I'll be right there."
"Cool. There's some <whatever guild I don't like> scrub here right now, so hurry it up."
"I'm here."
In chat- Sorry man he had the camp after me.

How is that fair? There should be a list for these camps like every other camp. If you leave the next person on that list should get the camp. You should have to declare when someone messages you who is next in line and if you fail to within a timely manner, then they automatically get the spot when you leave. You should not be able to hand down a camp in perpetuity, never giving another person/guild a chance at that camp. This is the fair way to manage a camp and there should also be a time limit for how long you can remain at a camp farming. You should not be able to stay til your bags are full if the item is needed by a lot of people. Monopolies are not classic and were never intended to happen, regardless of how the game is today.

It's not fair, and that's fine. P99 is not designed to be an easy loot train where nothing matters like most MMOs. P99 can be unfair, and that is one of the charms of it. If you want fair go play another MMO with instancing, you've got the option of basically every other MMO out there.

If you want a shot at the camp, wait there and look for an opening, as I said before. The camping party does make mistakes, and you can swoop in if you catch them being AFK for too long.

[strongNpretty]

How i picture some douche bags around here entering camps that they don't own or have rights to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8zO_DV09QE

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by strongNpretty [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How i picture some douche bags around here entering camps that they don't own or have rights to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8zO_DV09QE

How I picture a guy that failed all 3 servers

[strongNpretty]

Originally Posted by Ripqozko [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How I picture a guy that failed all 3 servers

I'm still not quite understanding where the hurtful part of your typical comment is? Saying I have more priorities in life than I do time to play vs you having no priorities in life, and more than enough time to play..

I guess as an adult, i'm not quite sure why you think that's considered winning? It's very confusing to me.

By all means i'm not here to make fun of you cause you have insane amounts of playtime.. It's more to to educate you, that i'm not quite sure where you think this is humiliating to somebody?

How much time you have today? I'm available to listen to your problems if you need-

[Zenren]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's not fair, and that's fine. P99 is not designed to be an easy loot train where nothing matters like most MMOs. P99 can be unfair, and that is one of the charms of it. If you want fair go play another MMO with instancing, you've got the option of basically every other MMO out there.

If you want a shot at the camp, wait there and look for an opening, as I said before. The camping party does make mistakes, and you can swoop in if you catch them being AFK for too long.

So your argument sounds a bit masochistic and I don't think represents the majority, but rather the small minority that benefit from the current camp rules.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Zenren [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So here's how these camps work now...

"Just got my idol, someone come out and replace me."
"I'll be right there."
"Cool. There's some <whatever guild I don't like> scrub here right now, so hurry it up."
"I'm here."
In chat- Sorry man he had the camp after me.

How is that fair? There should be a list for these camps like every other camp. If you leave the next person on that list should get the camp. You should have to declare when someone messages you who is next in line and if you fail to within a timely manner, then they automatically get the spot when you leave. You should not be able to hand down a camp in perpetuity, never giving another person/guild a chance at that camp. This is the fair way to manage a camp and there should also be a time limit for how long you can remain at a camp farming. You should not be able to stay til your bags are full if the item is needed by a lot of people. Monopolies are not classic and were never intended to happen, regardless of how the game is today.

First off, no you can’t tell someone to leave after they get a drop. You are allowed to farm the camp as long as you want if it’s your camp. That’s classic EQ. If you don’t like it go play somewhere else and quit whining here (I’d note this rule also will advantage you when you get the camp that you’re trying to get right now because you want to farm idols to sell to raid guilds).

Second, with respect to lists sure if you go to the camp and ask if there’s a list and they say yes they have to tell you who is ahead of you. That’s always been a rule. If they say there’s currently no list then you are entitled to say ok I’m next and wait until they are done with the camp and then take it for yourself; what you’re not entitled to do in that situation is say okay then I’m next and then go off into the world doing whatever you want and expect the person at the camp to wait until you get there to hand it off to you. When the person is done and you’re next on the list you get the camp if you’re there to take it…they can of course decide to be nice and wait until you get there to pass it to you, but they have no obligation to do so once they’re done with the camp…if you’re not there then you can lose the camp to the person behind you.

Imagine posting all these whiney comments because you’re upset someone else is farming the items to sell to raiding guilds and so you’re missing out on price gouging raiders for it. Are you an adult????