Someone Translate this wall of text from Omni

[Danth]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And if you believe that RnF reflects the general server population I have a bridge to sell you.

Matter of interpretation, I suspect. It's flagrantly obvious that the majority of the server population raids only infrequently or not at all. I'm part of that majority. However, that portion of the community is totally irrelevant insofar as this sort of discussion is concerned--might as well be playing a different game entirely. That's why I've not participated much in spite of reading the thread--I'm not going to be in temple veeshan more than once in a blue moon regardless of ruleset so what do I care?. Within the subset of the active raiding population the views posted in the thread might be more representative.

The frequent complaint that a rotation will struggle because of a fundamentally inadequate spawn rate seems fair enough. The Kunark-era "class R" rotation eventually (and predictably) broke down for exactly that reason. The middle-tier guilds turned against each other due to there being fundamentally insufficient spawns to go around. The pixel sickness took over and it fell apart. Any proposed rotation must somehow address that problem or else it'll suffer the same fate. How is that goal achieved within the existing game mechanics? Interested ion your thoughts on that matter.

Danth

[d3r14k]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And if you believe that RnF reflects the general server population I have a bridge to sell you.

WTB Loramin's bridge

[Nibblewitz]

We seem to be conflating the ideas of acquiring pixels and contesting the pinatas of pixels.

Standing on the sideline and watching your competition kill a dragon is experiencing content.

[feanan]

It's really amusing to watch the "big dogs" talk about competition, when everyone knows that really means how many fully buffed and geared raid forces you can leave logged around the major targets.

I believe a lot of you just log in to the next buffed 60 when one dies right? instead of rezing and recovery?

pretty lame, but its amusing how you delude yourself into thinking what great competitors you all are.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by feanan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's really amusing to watch the "big dogs" talk about competition, when everyone knows that really means how many fully buffed and geared raid forces you can leave logged around the major targets.

I believe a lot of you just log in to the next buffed 60 when one dies right? instead of rezing and recovery?

pretty lame, but its amusing how you delude yourself into thinking what great competitors you all are.

Well look, in a way they are. It takes time and dedication to level an alt up to 60 so you can park him somewhere. It takes time and dedication to CotH duck, or hit /pet attack foo, or to do whatever "competition" means on P99 today. When I keep putting "competition" in quotes, it's not that I'm suggesting there's no competition in the current system, it's that that "competition" isn't EverQuest (classic or otherwise).

The current raid scene is it's own game, separate from the one where you actually pretend to be an elf and slay dragons. There's too many elfs and not enough dragons, so we need some kind of out of game system: that's just the reality.

All I'm saying is, P99 has tried these made up competition games for so long, literally the entire history of the server (10 years!) except for a brief few months. People are so heavily invested in them that they literally don't care about the actual game of EverQuest at all: multiple people in this thread have said that game doesn't matter at all, all that matters is the made up "competition" game. Does that not sound crazy to anyone, that people would leave a classic EQ server not because they can't play classic EQ, but if the GMs take their made-up non-EQ "competition" game away from them?

I disagree. I think P99 is about playing classic EverQuest, and I think the best way to let the most people do that is rotations. And even if I'm wrong, we've tried monopolies and made up competition games for years on this server: why not try a more classic approach that exposes more content to more people?

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well look, in a way they are. It takes time and dedication to level an alt up to 60 so you can park him somewhere. It takes time and dedication to CotH duck, or hit /pet attack foo, or to do whatever "competition" means on P99 today. When I keep putting "competition" in quotes, it's not that I'm suggesting there's no competition in the current system, it's that that "competition" isn't EverQuest (classic or otherwise).

The current raid scene is it's own game, separate from the one where you actually pretend to be an elf and slay dragons. There's too many elfs and not enough dragons, so we need some kind of out of game system: that's just the reality.

All I'm saying is, P99 has tried these made up competition games for so long, literally the entire history of the server (10 years!) except for a brief few months. People are so heavily invested in them that they literally don't care about the actual game of EverQuest at all: multiple people in this thread have said that game doesn't matter at all, all that matters is the made up "competition" game. Does that not sound crazy to anyone, that people would leave a classic EQ server not because they can't play classic EQ, but if the GMs take their made-up non-EQ "competition" game away from them?

I disagree. I think P99 is about playing classic EverQuest, and I think the best way to let the most people do that is rotations. And even if I'm wrong, we've tried monopolies and made up competition games for years on this server: why not try a more classic approach that exposes more content to more people?

Sorry anon doesn’t get tov loot

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Within the subset of the active raiding population the views posted in the thread might be more representative.

I really, really don't think they are. Do a simple tally of people's guild tags in this thread if you don't believe me. Even ignoring the obvious top-guild people who don't put their tag in their sig, it's clear that the voices in this thread neither represent the server nor the raiding population.

Look, let's be honest: RnF is for losers like me who have too much time on their hands. Everyone here clearly has too much time on their hands. But there's nothing about raiding on P99 that requires you to have too much time on your hands (although obviously the current system massively benefits those people). There are literally thousands of people who raid on the server who never even look at RnF.

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The frequent complaint that a rotation will struggle because of a fundamentally inadequate spawn rate seems fair enough. The Kunark-era "class R" rotation eventually (and predictably) broke down for exactly that reason. The middle-tier guilds turned against each other due to there being fundamentally insufficient spawns to go around. The pixel sickness took over and it fell apart. Any proposed rotation must somehow address that problem or else it'll suffer the same fate. How is that goal achieved within the existing game mechanics? Interested ion your thoughts on that matter.

Right, so out of P99's 10-year history we've tried rotations ... never. We tried some structured system (class R/C) ... for a few months. The entire rest of the time it's either been monopolies or made-up non-classic EQ "competition" systems. I think it's completely unfair to assume from those few months of non-rotation that all structured systems, let alone all forms of rotation systems, are impossible or bad for P99.

[Littul Jonn]

Small observation then im out - You do know nobody CotH ducks right?

Cloki's original point is valid in that the burden of proof needed for "cheating" is insane. However if you look at the targets in ToV, or really anywhere now, nobody is bending rules or training on purpose. The main reasons others are getting mobs and not your guild is the bigger guildss have more people who can contest longer.

Advice, not that anyone wants to hear it, level 2 coth mages to 55 and 3 clerics to 40 (for CH), contest 2 hours of whatever mob you'd like, and see how ya do.

[Champion_Standing]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So what? People can "lawyer" all they want, but this server is not a democracy, it's a dictatorship. If Rogean implements rotations, part of doing that would be establishing a system to answer your questions, including settling when people leave the rotation.

And if he's smart, he could even setup the system in a way that makes players police each other so the staff has less work to do. For instance, he could make it so that to drop a guild from the rotation a player from another guild has to fraps them failing on gatekeeper mob X twice. Or he could say that whoever gets ToV this week has to send a representative to observe new guild Y that is trying to kill gatekeeper mob X for the first time so they can get into the rotation.

Instead of a system designed to pit everyone against each other, the staff could implement a system where the players have to work with each other (don't send the observer for the new guild's gatekeeper fight? your guild loses its next ToV week). And again, such a system strikes me as massively better for the server and most players (ie. not just the top guilds, and not just the RnF-dwellers).

There are a lot of potential issues in setting up a rotation, I only mentioned a few. Sure it's nice to be able to just push that off on the staff and say "hey you figure this out" But It's not a good defense on your position on the issue. If you can't think of simple ways to deal with them then idk why the staff would or should either.

No matter what you do some people are not going to be able to see all the raid content they want to see. You are going to have to create a strict set of rules about how to stay or get on the rotation, and some people will fail. So instead of being able to team with a few other guilds and get some kills they just need to wait until they can reapply to the rotation? SOMEONE has to figure out how long they're locked out and when they can reapply...even if its not you. And you are kidding yourself if you think these decisions wouldn't come, at some level, from other players. What do you expect the staff to observe every guilds raids and make sure they meet every requirement? No, other guilds will be watching and reporting what's going on to the staff. You'll have the same frapsing bullshit you have now, except the result will likely be a complete lockout from the content when the neckbeards win.

[Champion_Standing]

Serious question tho Loramin. What is it about the current situation that makes you feel like you or people you are concerned about have absolutely no chance at contesting ToV or top end content? I really don't see why a guild that had a capable force would opt to NOT contest simply because they have to contest it. Is it really just a matter of wanting to make the raid scene a 0 competition game? Or have you really found that you get trained and rule lawyered out of every mob you've ever tried to get?

I like making fun of the raiders in rnf, but I've spent plenty of time with them in game. I was there on the first contested inny on this server and I was in ToV for the last repops so I have a mildly relevant perspective on it. Today I really don't think the scene is as horrible as the forums or other social media around P99 makes it out to be. It's actually boringly civil most of the time at this point. If you don't consider getting loot to be the sole indicator of civility at least.