Someone Translate this wall of text from Omni

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Champion_Standing [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Serious question tho Loramin. What is it about the current situation that makes you feel like you or people you are concerned about have absolutely no chance at contesting ToV or top end content? I really don't see why a guild that had a capable force would opt to NOT contest simply because they have to contest it. Is it really just a matter of wanting to make the raid scene a 0 competition game? Or have you really found that you get trained and rule lawyered out of every mob you've ever tried to get?

I like making fun of the raiders in rnf, but I've spent plenty of time with them in game. I was there on the first contested inny on this server and I was in ToV for the last repops so I have a mildly relevant perspective on it. Today I really don't think the scene is as horrible as the forums or other social media around P99 makes it out to be. It's actually boringly civil most of the time at this point. If you don't consider getting loot to be the sole indicator of civility at least.

Ok, let's start at the end: you and I are both"old timers", so we both remember the TMO days, and everything that has happened since. There is no doubt in my mind that the current P99 raid scene is definitely one of the best in the server's history. Depending on your preferences maybe the Class C/R era was better, maybe it wasn't, but I think all reasonable people would agree that putting that era aside, raiding now is better than it's ever been ...

... but even so that's a pretty low bar. Before we had one guild that could "compete" (though as we all know, there wasn't all that much "competition" in that era ... although there was some). Now we have a few, and objectively those few guilds comprise more players than TMO did. Thus, there is greater access (more players get to experience) EQ raid content.

What I'm arguing is, why not take it further, and change things so even more people can play? If going from TMO (100 players, made-up number) to Core/Aftermath/AG (250 players, again made-up) was good (and just about everyone will say it was), why isn't going from 250 to 500, or 1000 players good?

If all those people are of the appropriate level, are appropriately geared, and are willing to learn (you can't require raid knowledge; new guilds won't magically be able to take say Yelinak out without practice), why add artificial constraints (ie. P99 raid "competition", which for like the billionth time has nothing to do with the actual game of Everquest) to prevent them from experiencing classic EverQuest content, on a server dedicated to that proposition?

Yes, the alternative is sharing. Yes sharing means less for the people currently getting everything. No, I don't see that as a bad thing. We went from bad competition (clickfests) on Shady Goblin and Scout, to a sharing system (rolls), and it's worked great. No one wants to go back.

So look it's not about whether I can "compete", or whether my current guild can "compete": I'm questioning the competition itself. It's unclassic and it artificially limits server content to a smaller subset of players. Rotations make that content available to more people: they let more people experience classic EverQuest. That's what this server is about.

And as for all the GM hardships you're listing, you're ignoring the fact that: A) the staff themselves "pre-released" a rotation system! and B) as I mentioned earlier, a lot of the work in a rotation system could absolutely be shifted to the players.

Let's say there's a gatekeeper mob a guild needs to defeat to join the rotation. You could make a staff member waste time observing, or you could say "whoever has ToV this week is obligated to send someone to observe new guilds wanting to break into the rotation; they have to show up, watch, and if the guild beats the mob they have to update the wiki, send the staff a PM, or do whatever it takes to elevate the new guild into the rotation." If that guild doesn't, they lose their next ToV rotation (which would require GM time, but not much and it should be pretty rare since no one will want to lose ToV), and next week's guild will verify.

That's just one very simple example of how the staff could design a system that makes less work for them. But let's not miss the forest from the trees here: while a rotation would require staff effort, so does the current raid scene. As Omni pointed out way back at the start of this thread, the staff is having difficulty supporting even that. There is absolutely no reason to believe that a properly implemented rotation system would have to mean more work for the staff: it absolutely could mean less.

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok, let's start at the end: you and I are both"old timers", so we both remember the TMO days, and everything that has happened since. There is no doubt in my mind that the current P99 raid scene is definitely one of the best in the server's history. Depending on your preferences maybe the Class C/R era was better, maybe it wasn't, but I think all reasonable people would agree that putting that era aside, raiding now is better than it's ever been ...

... but even so that's a pretty low bar. Before we had one guild that could "compete" (though as we all know, there wasn't all that much "competition" in that era ... although there was some). Now we have a few, and objectively those few guilds comprise more players than TMO did. Thus, there is greater access (more players get to experience) EQ raid content.

What I'm arguing is, why not take it further, and change things so even more people can play? If going from TMO (100 players, made-up number) to Core/Aftermath/AG (250 players, again made-up) was good (and just about everyone will say it was), why isn't going from 250 to 500, or 1000 players good?

If all those people are of the appropriate level, are appropriately geared, and are willing to learn (you can't require raid knowledge; new guilds won't magically be able to take say Yelinak out without practice), why add artificial constraints (ie. P99 raid "competition", which for like the billionth time has nothing to do with the actual game of Everquest) to prevent them from experiencing classic EverQuest content, on a server dedicated to that proposition?

Yes, the alternative is sharing. Yes sharing means less for the people currently getting everything. No, I don't see that as a bad thing. We went from bad competition (clickfests) on Shady Goblin and Scout, to a sharing system (rolls), and it's worked great. No one wants to go back.

So look it's not about whether I can "compete", or whether my current guild can "compete": I'm questioning the competition itself. It's unclassic and it artificially limits server content to a smaller subset of players. Rotations make that content available to more people: they let more people experience classic EverQuest. That's what this server is about.

And as for all the GM hardships you're listing, you're ignoring the fact that: A) the staff themselves "pre-released" a rotation system! and B) as I mentioned earlier, a lot of the work in a rotation system could absolutely be shifted to the players.

Let's say there's a gatekeeper mob a guild needs to defeat to join the rotation. You could make a staff member waste time observing, or you could say "whoever has ToV this week is obligated to send someone to observe new guilds wanting to break into the rotation; they have to show up, watch, and if the guild beats the mob they have to update the wiki, send the staff a PM, or do whatever it takes to elevate the new guild into the rotation." If that guild doesn't, they lose their next ToV rotation (which would require GM time, but not much and it should be pretty rare since no one will want to lose ToV), and next week's guild will verify.

That's just one very simple example of how the staff could design a system that makes less work for them. But let's not miss the forest from the trees here: while a rotation would require staff effort, so does the current raid scene. As Omni pointed out way back at the start of this thread, the staff is having difficulty supporting even that. There is absolutely no reason to believe that a properly implemented rotation system would have to mean more work for the staff: it absolutely could mean less.

All I hear is yadda yadda I'm gonna pretend it's for the greater good so I can get my freebie pixels. For the children! Sorry you don't get raid.

[Pyrrhica]

Originally Posted by Mead [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What happened to this guy?



Did he cure the server of cancer?

I have long wondered who the author was behind this masterpiece. Kim Jong would have a hard time finding a propagandist this good. Can only hope he has received sufficient deprogramming to returm to a normal and fulfilling life on the outside.

[Mead]

If all Loramin and his pals want it is to experience raid content and no pixels, AM can just let them tag along every week. Then they can get the full experience and we can stop these threads.

[BlownAway]

Good Competition there in TOV so far tonight boys! 100+ person kills VS NO ONE AT ALL! We really are starting to come around to all your "the competition is the fun part"

[Legidias]

Tag along? All you have to do is zone into ToV and hide behind a brazier for 2 hours.

[Hibbs]

Originally Posted by Legidias [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Tag along? All you have to do is zone into ToV and hide behind a brazier for 2 hours.

LOL

[aaezil]

tagging along on a raid where a zerg guild of 300 lawn mowers down mobs in the most un-classic way imaginable is probably the worst thing i could ever imagine

[tyrant49333]

Alot of whiners here who haven't put in the work to learn end game strats, don't practice to be competitive, don't put in the effort to track or FTE, don't farm the appropriate raid items to be competitive, don't study the success and failure of other guilds strategies, don't fraps and review their own mistakes, want to get free welfare pixels. Bunch of Bernie Sanders fans we got here

[Legidias]

So you're describing the 175/190 people in ToV who got called in and sit at ent while 5 people go out to do all the things you're saying every end game raider does?????

Dem end game 'hide behind the brazier while 5 guys pull a dragon to us' strats though. Really needs a lot of practice to wake up at 4 am and hit a couple buttons. So much competition to crouch walk past the other 50 people into a 1 sq foot space.