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Old 08-25-2013, 02:33 PM
Nytch Nytch is offline
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Default 1h or 2h for pally

I assume 1h is the way to go while tanking for bash but would picking up a nice 2h wep be worth it?
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Old 08-25-2013, 03:01 PM
Durothil Skyreaver Durothil Skyreaver is offline
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Originally Posted by Nytch [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I assume 1h is the way to go while tanking for bash but would picking up a nice 2h wep be worth it?
You can get a decent 2hb or 2hs for like 200pp. Baton of Faith is 30/40 and cheap.
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Old 08-25-2013, 03:51 PM
Tecmos Deception Tecmos Deception is offline
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Not sure why bash is something you would want more as a tank (you're ever NOT the tank?) than a dps. With the questionable value of ac on p99 and pal lies having stuns, I'd say just go 2hb and swap in a shield if you really really need a bash.
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Old 08-25-2013, 04:25 PM
A1551 A1551 is offline
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What Tecmos said. Bash is great if youre a warrior and don't have a ton of stuns or you're fighting something resistant that casts spells, but as a paladin whos not rich the answer is pretty much baton of faith for 200pp and never look back until you can afford something higher end -- and most of those higher end options short of epic are also 2hb.

You keep aggro with spells and you can stun. There may be situations in which you want a sword/shield combo for bashing but it's going to be very rare. The only other potential argument for the shield is the extra ac or maybe hp -- even with how terrible paladin dps is in a typical exp group the ac from a shield isn't going to come close to equaling the benefit of just killings things faster. See some of the ac threads for more info [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
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Old 08-25-2013, 05:12 PM
Lorraine Lorraine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Not sure why bash is something you would want more as a tank (you're ever NOT the tank?) than a dps. With the questionable value of ac on p99 and pal lies having stuns, I'd say just go 2hb and swap in a shield if you really really need a bash.
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You keep aggro with spells and you can stun. There may be situations in which you want a sword/shield combo for bashing but it's going to be very rare. The only other potential argument for the shield is the extra ac or maybe hp -- even with how terrible paladin dps is in a typical exp group the ac from a shield isn't going to come close to equaling the benefit of just killings things faster. See some of the ac threads for more info [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Our first stun comes into play at level 30. It also has a refresh timer. Until then, the only way to interrupt casters is bash. And the earliest one learns that it's important to interrupt specific spells, the better their life (and their group members life) will be.

And it kinda starts early. By the time you hit Unrest and decide to take on hags, well timed bashes can really save a lot of nasty nukes from landing.

Learn to identify spell schools and spells in particular from their spell particles. Sometimes it might be worth to stop a dispel from possibly knocking a valuable buff (if you happened to top slot symbol, or top slotted levi and you're about to plummet from a dispel) than interrupting a nuke. Weapon swap for a bash and then switching back to your 2hand is something that you can master.

tl ; dr

-Start learning early.
-Mobs that sit in your face and try to channel are static during the duration. Position yourself behind it, and bash then.
-In case of CBAing to carry a shield, as soon as you see channeling, position yourself along with the melee dps. Push will probably do the rest.

You'd be surprised how many high level tanks CBA to save their bash/kick and move behind a caster who's channeling in order to have higher chances of interrupting.
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Old 08-25-2013, 07:00 PM
kaev kaev is offline
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Good post Lorraine.

Also worth mentioning that classic stuns are not super quick to cast compared to lower level fast-cast nukes. 2.0 sec seems fast, until you're actually trying to interrupt a L30 wiz-casting mob and you have even the slightest bit of lag or latency. Bash is HUGE for a Paladin, it is one of the features of the Fiery Avenger (the original epic) and the Fiery Defender (the "real" Paladin epic) that they allow Bash while using a 2hander. Further, talk all you like about how "broken" AC is here, a 25 AC shield does make a noticeable difference in damage taken over the course of an xp session in the mid-levels.
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Old 08-26-2013, 05:41 AM
A1551 A1551 is offline
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Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Good post Lorraine.

Also worth mentioning that classic stuns are not super quick to cast compared to lower level fast-cast nukes. 2.0 sec seems fast, until you're actually trying to interrupt a L30 wiz-casting mob and you have even the slightest bit of lag or latency. Bash is HUGE for a Paladin, it is one of the features of the Fiery Avenger (the original epic) and the Fiery Defender (the "real" Paladin epic) that they allow Bash while using a 2hander. Further, talk all you like about how "broken" AC is here, a 25 AC shield does make a noticeable difference in damage taken over the course of an xp session in the mid-levels.
I don't want to quote numbers because they are so hard to quantify with AC (again, see any of the numerous ac test posts floating around) but the one thing they all more or less agree on is the benefit of 25 ac going to be fairly small at best. Yes, over the course of an entire evening that ac and extra stun time will add up, but so does all that lost dps. Sword/board -- it certainly looks cooler, and stunning mobs with shield bash is pretty cool, and there definitely ARE situations where the 1 hander/bash will be advantageous. But for most mobs <50 killing them even slightly faster (and a baton of faith for 200pp is going to be significantly more than "slightly" higher dps than any 1 hander in its price range) is going to usually be the better choice. By a wide margin.

As a quick example take hags in unrest. The way to kill them is to make them die fast not try and play defensively (stun all their spells and outlast them over a long fight). Shield bash will fail a lot. Stuns will resist. None of that matters if the mob is dead. My pally did some soloing vs hags in unrest -- the baton of faith absolutely trounced ghoulbane, for example. Also, the baton with its fairly long swing time lets you cast spells in between swings very reliably (like stuns, undead dds etc) without losing any dps.

I'm not saying the 1 hander/shield doesnt have its place, but the answer to the OPS question is a resounding "yes, get a baton of faith and blow things up, and no, 1 hander/shield is not necessarily the way to go even if you're tanking"
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Last edited by A1551; 08-26-2013 at 05:44 AM..
  #8  
Old 08-26-2013, 08:37 AM
Lorraine Lorraine is offline
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Originally Posted by A1551 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
As a quick example take hags in unrest. The way to kill them is to make them die fast not try and play defensively (stun all their spells and outlast them over a long fight). Shield bash will fail a lot. Stuns will resist. None of that matters if the mob is dead. My pally did some soloing vs hags in unrest -- the baton of faith absolutely trounced ghoulbane, for example. Also, the baton with its fairly long swing time lets you cast spells in between swings very reliably (like stuns, undead dds etc) without losing any dps.

I'm not saying the 1 hander/shield doesnt have its place, but the answer to the OPS question is a resounding "yes, get a baton of faith and blow things up, and no, 1 hander/shield is not necessarily the way to go even if you're tanking"

My Ghoulbane owned Hags and also Baton of Faith when it came to tanking them at the mid20s. Because you know, I didn't neglect my dexterity. Let's not play the he-said-she-said game.

Sub30 you have NO stuns and the Undead DD for the mana price is negligent when you can use that mana to heal during downtime thus pull faster. Bash stuns a mob and allows the real dps classes (like all those mega twinked rogues and monks) to actually do their job.. like dps.

Heals don't get resisted or partially resisted. Nukes more often than not do, especially at these levels where MR debuffs aren't that strong.
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Old 08-26-2013, 11:09 AM
Estu Estu is offline
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Regarding the value of shield AC - according to this parse, you take about 2-3% less damage if you equip a shield. Granted, this is just one parse, only one hour long per situation, and it's a level 51 character. But just putting it out there. Both sides here have valid points. I used to be very much of the opinion that sword+shield made more sense because you're a TANK, not a DPS, and so you should be TANKING. But really, you need to weigh the value of that damage mitigation versus the value of whatever increased DPS you can do (there are also damage caps that will come into play on a 30/40 weapon and limit your DPS for many levels, which no one has mentioned yet). It would be helpful to do some parsing and see how much damage you're really doing with each situation, and compare it against the damage the other DPS classes in your group are doing.
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Old 08-26-2013, 01:34 PM
kaev kaev is offline
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Originally Posted by Estu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Regarding the value of shield AC - according to this parse, you take about 2-3% less damage if you equip a shield. Granted, this is just one parse, only one hour long per situation, and it's a level 51 character. But just putting it out there. Both sides here have valid points. I used to be very much of the opinion that sword+shield made more sense because you're a TANK, not a DPS, and so you should be TANKING. But really, you need to weigh the value of that damage mitigation versus the value of whatever increased DPS you can do (there are also damage caps that will come into play on a 30/40 weapon and limit your DPS for many levels, which no one has mentioned yet). It would be helpful to do some parsing and see how much damage you're really doing with each situation, and compare it against the damage the other DPS classes in your group are doing.
Gotta laugh out of "... the other DPS classes ... " there, heh. With the 16/27 Sword of the Morning and the 25ac/50hp Charred Guardian Shield both so cheap and accessible I definitely advocate using them over the Baton of Faith when you're tanking for a group that includes any recognizable DPS class.

Seriously, the difference in damage output is so small that the extra HP buffer, reduced damage intake, and additional interrupts are worth more than the ca. 1 DPS diff you'll see in actual practice. Unless, of course, your group so totally overpowers the content that you don't actually need to tank with anything tougher than a half-naked Druid alt, in which case do whatever makes your groupmates happy (sing songs on vent, tell dirty jokes, do silly roleplay with randoms in ooc) because you have nothing meaningful to contribute anyway except maybe stunning a runner once in a while.

Paladin is NOT a DPS class, only the Cleric has less damage output potential than the Paladin. Arguing about a difference that is less than 1% of any half-adequate group's damage aggregate output is just silly.
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