Hit point vs. Mana point gearing on a Manna Robe Magician

[WarpathEQ]

TLDR, I skipped the responses because this is a pretty simple scenario, when looking at gear every +30hp is the same as +10 mana, look for the items the give the most combined by adding the +mana and +hp/3 together.

Ultimately the pool doesn't matter that much if you're looking at long term sustainability its all about how much you can regen so things like zheart and flowing thought items will be way more valuable than the max pool.

Of course that is highly revolved around being a coth bot, the maxes start to matter a if you want to be anything more than a coth bot.

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by WarpathEQ [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TLDR, I skipped the responses because this is a pretty simple scenario, when looking at gear every +30hp is the same as +10 mana, look for the items the give the most combined by adding the +mana and +hp/3 together.

Ultimately the pool doesn't matter that much if you're looking at long term sustainability its all about how much you can regen so things like zheart and flowing thought items will be way more valuable than the max pool.

Of course that is highly revolved around being a coth bot, the maxes start to matter a if you want to be anything more than a coth bot.

In sustainable environments yes, pool matters the most in competitive coths ie: lady never, zlandi etc where having enough for 8 fast coths matters the most. If ya not getting the core down ASAP you aren't winning the mob.

[Snaggles]

Being able to robe click between coths (8 times) is 160 mana gained. Over the course of the night bringing people to HoT it’s a luxury but as mentioned before it’s not a necessity.

If you are maining a mage, generally you are checking the lobby for stragglers or a reason to DA bomb. There might be causes for a DS or a few rods but in general past that coth race-scenario or the kind involving training out mobs it’s a very relaxed game. A reason a mage is maybe the ultimate warmbody raider…no faction hits even.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by Ripqozko [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In sustainable environments yes, pool matters the most in competitive coths ie: lady never, zlandi etc where having enough for 8 fast coths matters the most. If ya not getting the core down ASAP you aren't winning the mob.

8 coths is 4k mana. Is your mage geared to a 4k mana pool? If not, what do you have to do to cast the eight coth? Why is eight the crucial number of coths to cast?

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I know the thread started with 12 sec cast time but 15 sec recast time, so using a mana robe with a 3 sec cast time is a perfect spacer between COTHs. I believe on the first page it was established that the damage done by that mana robe every 15 secs can be basically ignored in a variety of conditions.

Obviously the conversation has moved on from there, where are we at now?

Perhaps this is more realistic than my initial scenario: At first you chain-cast coth, with a single robe click between coths while waiting for the recast timer. When you run out of mana you rapidly click the robe until you have enough mana for the next coth. It takes 25 clicks and 75 seconds to regain 500 mana, costing 1500 health in the process.

One thing I don't understand, how do you get each person targeted for the coth? Do you have to cast Eye of Zomm between each coth to target the next player? Or is your group leader waiting at zone-in to invite, and then you just target off the group window?

[Balimon]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

8 coths is 4k mana. Is your mage geared to a 4k mana pool? If not, what do you have to do to cast the eight coth? Why is eight the crucial number of coths to cast?



Perhaps this is more realistic than my initial scenario: At first you chain-cast coth, with a single robe click between coths while waiting for the recast timer. When you run out of mana you rapidly click the robe until you have enough mana for the next coth. It takes 25 clicks and 75 seconds to regain 500 mana, costing 1500 health in the process.

One thing I don't understand, how do you get each person targeted for the coth? Do you have to cast Eye of Zomm between each coth to target the next player? Or is your group leader waiting at zone-in to invite, and then you just target off the group window?

Generally the group is either pre-made or you someone acting as anchor at entrance to invite people. You can target off the group window during the robe cast to speed it up. In other situations you eyeball to entrance and invite people manually.

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

8 coths is 4k mana. Is your mage geared to a 4k mana pool? If not, what do you have to do to cast the eight coth? Why is eight the crucial number of coths to cast?



Perhaps this is more realistic than my initial scenario: At first you chain-cast coth, with a single robe click between coths while waiting for the recast timer. When you run out of mana you rapidly click the robe until you have enough mana for the next coth. It takes 25 clicks and 75 seconds to regain 500 mana, costing 1500 health in the process.

One thing I don't understand, how do you get each person targeted for the coth? Do you have to cast Eye of Zomm between each coth to target the next player? Or is your group leader waiting at zone-in to invite, and then you just target off the group window?

Yes im geared for 4k mana, then rest is resists for quadding

edit: 8 is just a good number to get the core down to sustain, 4 clerics, shm, ench, tank, last call a mage. if you are 2nd mage you could add couple more cleric, backup tank, bard, necros. You just want to be able to get the core down as one of the primary mages on actual competitive coths. if you arent competitive cothing then you just stack a bunch of necros to twitch you all eternity it doesnt matter at that point and ya min/maxing is pointless.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by WarpathEQ [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TLDR, I skipped the responses because this is a pretty simple scenario, when looking at gear every +30hp is the same as +10 mana, look for the items the give the most combined by adding the +mana and +hp/3 together.

There's two ways in which this isn't quite true. First, 60hp needs 3 seconds of casting to turn into 20 mana, so 20 mana is strictly better. Secondly the surprising part of my result is that it's not quite hp/3. You have to scale the health bonus by the ratio between the mana burn rate before and after you click through your health buffer. And that ratio is dependent upon how much health regen you have.

I'm still struggling to understand all the implications of that, but here's one way of thinking about it. If you have infinite health regen (say, a shaman who's doing nothing but keeping you torpored), adding more max hp won't help your mana pool, because you'll always be able to click the robe as much as you want.

The only time it would be hp/3 is if your mana burn rate is very low, equal to the mana you're getting from your robe clicks. In that scenario, you'd burn no mana while you're using the robe to burn through your health buffer, and then you'd burn through your mana pool.

So I think this suggests that the more health regen you have, the less important hp gear is for maximizing mana. But, like, when I crunched the numbers for one scenario I came up with hp/3.1, so I think it's totally fine to stick with hp/3 as a simple rule of thumb.

Here's the final result I came up with:
time til oom = initial_mana/burn2 + (1 - burn1/burn2) * initial_health/health_burn

Here, burn1 is the slope of the first portion and burn2 is the slope of the second portion in the graph I posted at the bottom of page 2.

Also, this is a lot of words just to come to the same conclusion as you:

Originally Posted by WarpathEQ [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ultimately the pool doesn't matter that much if you're looking at long term sustainability its all about how much you can regen

[Toxigen]

the pool does matter on the only thing that matters (competitive coth engages)

[Ripqozko]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the pool does matter on the only thing that matters (competitive coth engages)

bunch of people that dont really play mages going full DSM and saying what matters to mages, oof.

[Toxigen]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

One thing I don't understand, how do you get each person targeted for the coth? Do you have to cast Eye of Zomm between each coth to target the next player? Or is your group leader waiting at zone-in to invite, and then you just target off the group window?

Yep, leader is on anchor duty.

We used to call it RTE (ready to engage), and paid extra DKP for such duties. Players are at the keyboard, fully buffed, ready to rock with an established coth order. Typically when a pop goes late into window or high value target.

As Rip said, 8 is the magic number where you can yellow text and survive long enough for the 2nd mage to get another 7 up and stabilize. This is where worts, reapers, etc can make a big difference.