Please check my math on Troll vs Ogre Shaman

[Snaggles]

Being able to snare something as an inny troll is clutch. Yes it’s a crap snare but most optimal Sham duo choices don’t have it (minus a SK). A npc with 10k+ hps can “flee” for a very long time.

I have nothing against ogres but for a level 25’ish quest the snare neck is pretty amazing. It’s at least (if not better) than getting bashed when something is already slowed 75%.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

From a fashion perspective, pick the race you want if that is your biggest concern. Some people prefer having an edge stat-wise, as opposed to fashion. If you are like me, you like Ogres/Trolls AND stat advantage too.

No one has denied regeneration is better than FSI before you get Torpor. This is because 8HP/Tick is an extra 25% of the total regeneration you can get on a Pre-Torpor Shaman (+15 Fungi Tunic, +15 Regrowth/Fungi Staff, +2 Bear Form). That is quite a big improvement. Post Torpor, 8/300 is only an extra 2.6%. Torpor changes the Troll regeneration bonus from a 25% increase, to a 2.6% increase. That is a tenfold reduction in utility. This is why regeneration in general loses a lot of utility once you get Torpor. Most 60 Torpor Shamans don't keep a Fungi Tunic on all the time. It's still a great swap item in certain situations, but it isn't the godly item it is when you are Pre-Torpor.

Some people want the best edge they can get AFTER they have Torpor. If this is the case, FSI will save you more often than 8HP/Tick. If a fight is going south, and you only have one minute to live, 8HP/Tick is giving you a measly 80HP in that minute. That is 2 bashes from a West Wastes Dragon. If Slow wears off, and your re-slows are getting resisted, being able to land more slows in that one minute will give you a much greater chance of survival than 80 HP. This is why FSI is generally considered to be better than regeneration POST Torpor.

You should really get the snare necklace on a character to see for yourself, it isn't that great of an item. The snare has the lowest snare % in the game, the necklace has a 6 second cast time, it only lasts 36 seconds, and it seems to get resisted quite a bit. Due to it's 6 second cast time, it's not really an item you can use to save yourself. Root will work better in almost all situations. The only exception would be if the mob is a powerful caster, and you don't want it casting spells while it is running away. However, the slow is so bad the mob will keep running until about 10% health, instead of the usual 20% health.

JBB is a much cheaper leveling tool than epic, it can be resold if you want, and it is still useful at level 60. I use it to help kill West Waste Dragons faster. As a Shaman, reducing the amount of spell gems you use is critical. A Torpor Shaman will have Cannibalize 4, Torpor, Malo, and Turgur's Insects on their spell bar basically all of the time. That is 4/8 spell gems used already. If you want some extra security with Gate, that is 5/8 spell gems used. That means you only have 3 spell gems for roots, DoTs, secondary debuffs like Malosini, utility spells like invisibility, or your DD Ice Spell. JBB gives you one of your better DD spells for free, without using a spell gem or mana. That is a great advantage on any mob that can be hit with a DD ice spell. You just need to know which mobs it can be used on.

This entire statement has nothing to do with min max shaman, but having a potential slight edge over trolls when soloing. But they do a lot more than just solo, and every second they aren’t tanking they’re losing to a troll. I have the snare necklace as well, and I also use clinging darkness on my sk even at higher levels, it’s still effective.

[Philistine]

I propose that folks just agree to disagree [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[DMN]

I've long burnt out on the whole troll/ogre shaman debate. Long term it's not going to make much difference no matter what. once you have torpor the thing that is going to kill you 99.999% of the time soloing is going to be spell resists. The snare can save you a decent amount of mana in grouping situations, but usually only relevant in smaller grouping since more players you add the more likely someone in it has a snare.

[Baler]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This entire statement has nothing to do with min max shaman, but having a potential slight edge over trolls when soloing. But they do a lot more than just solo, and every second they aren’t tanking they’re losing to a troll. I have the snare necklace as well, and I also use clinging darkness on my sk even at higher levels, it’s still effective.

I've told him this and even bent my knee to give him positives for ogre. But he's thoroughly locked into believing ogre is better, which it isn't.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Baler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've told him this and even bent my knee to give him positives for ogre. But he's thoroughly locked into believing ogre is better, which it isn't.

It isn't about bending the knee. I don't care who is right. I just care about the facts. I've shown the math multiple times on Regeneration Post-Torpor, and I keep saying Trolls are better Pre-Torpor.

You are simply over-estimating Regeneration Post-Torpor. Regeneration Post-Torpor isn't that great because you are always full health in between fights due to Torpor. Troll Regeneration will only save you 1 Torpor (24 seconds) maximum when Cannibalizing from low health and mana.

The only time Regeneration matters is in fights, corpse recovery, and in raids when you are chain buffing/healing. I have NEVER run into a problem while raiding in terms of keeping up with heals/buffs, even during corpse recovery. That is WITHOUT Troll Regeneration, WITHOUT Fungi Tunic, AND WITHOUT Regrowth. If I can keep up WITHOUT +38 Regeneration, I can certainly keep up WITHOUT +8 Regeneration.

I am not saying Regeneration is bad Post-Torpor. I still use Fungi Staff and Bear Form. But at the end of the day if you want the best racial Post-Torpor, FSI will help you more often than Regeneration. That is all I am saying. I am not saying Regeneration is bad. The math shows FSI will help more often in a life or death fight than Regeneration. This is the only time either racial really matters Post-Torpor.

If you have a fight completely under control, FSI and Regeneration will not change the fight at all. This is why neither are useful for a lot of fights, and why race doesn't matter much on a Shaman with Torpor.

I am also not saying Snare Neck is bad. I am just showing it isn't a great, class changing item. Clinging Darkness isn't a great spell, and the cast time on the neck is long for the short duration and resist potential of Clinging Darkness. With most Shaman strategies and mob running situations, Root works just fine. The only time Snare Neck partially changes a Shaman strategy is with Blind kiting (ghetto fear kiting).

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This entire statement has nothing to do with min max shaman, but having a potential slight edge over trolls when soloing. But they do a lot more than just solo, and every second they aren’t tanking they’re losing to a troll. I have the snare necklace as well, and I also use clinging darkness on my sk even at higher levels, it’s still effective.

I have a Shadowknight, and I would never use Clinging Darkness, even to save mana. The next level spell, Engulfing Darkness, is way better. Engulfing Darkness is twice as good as Clinging Darkness. It costs 60 mana instead of 20, but since it is twice as good, it is the equivalent of casting Clinging Darkness twice. This means if you use Clinging Darkness, you are only saving 20 mana per two casts, and you are losing time and DPS from casting Clinging Darkness twice as often. The snare is also worse on Clinging Darkness, so you are creating a longer runway for yourself when fear kiting.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It isn't about bending the knee. I don't care who is right. I just care about the facts. I've shown the math multiple times on Regeneration Post-Torpor, and I keep saying Trolls are better Pre-Torpor.

You are simply over-estimating Regeneration Post-Torpor. Regeneration Post-Torpor isn't that great because you are always full health in between fights due to Torpor. Troll Regeneration will only save you 1 Torpor (24 seconds) maximum when Cannibalizing from low health and mana.

The only time Regeneration matters is in fights, corpse recovery, and in raids when you are chain buffing/healing. I have NEVER run into a problem while raiding in terms of keeping up with heals/buffs, even during corpse recovery. That is WITHOUT Troll Regeneration, WITHOUT Fungi Tunic, AND WITHOUT Regrowth. If I can keep up WITHOUT +38 Regeneration, I can certainly keep up WITHOUT +8 Regeneration.

I am not saying Regeneration is bad Post-Torpor. I still use Fungi Staff and Bear Form. But at the end of the day if you want the best racial Post-Torpor, FSI will help you more often than Regeneration. That is all I am saying. I am not saying Regeneration is bad. The math shows FSI will help more often in a life or death fight than Regeneration. This is the only time either racial really matters Post-Torpor.

If you have a fight completely under control, FSI and Regeneration will not change the fight at all. This is why neither are useful for a lot of fights, and why race doesn't matter much on a Shaman with Torpor.

I am also not saying Snare Neck is bad. I am just showing it isn't a great, class changing item. Clinging Darkness isn't a great spell, and the cast time on the neck is long for the short duration and resist potential of Clinging Darkness. With most Shaman strategies and mob running situations, Root works just fine. The only time Snare Neck partially changes a Shaman strategy is with Blind kiting (ghetto fear kiting).



I have a Shadowknight, and I would never use Clinging Darkness, even to save mana. The next level spell, Engulfing Darkness, is way better. Engulfing Darkness is twice as good as Clinging Darkness. It costs 60 mana instead of 20, but since it is twice as good, it is the equivalent of casting Clinging Darkness twice. This means if you use Clinging Darkness, you are only saving 20 mana per two casts, and you are losing time and DPS from casting Clinging Darkness twice as often. The snare is also worse on Clinging Darkness, so you are creating a longer runway for yourself when fear kiting.

Nobody is saying regen was needed in raids. But it's still an advantage and these are the absolute facts:

More regen = less torpor casts needed to maintain health. The racial advantage goes from 8 to 11/tick at 60 if you decide you want to take a break from canni & sit to med or canni dance.
Snare necklace = potential life saver in specific scenarios.
FSI = potential life saver in specific scenarios.

Snare/FSI is a wash. Troll regen wins out.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nobody is saying regen was needed in raids. But it's still an advantage and these are the absolute facts:

More regen = less torpor casts needed to maintain health. The racial advantage goes from 8 to 11/tick at 60 if you decide you want to take a break from canni & sit to med or canni dance.
Snare necklace = potential life saver in specific scenarios.
FSI = potential life saver in specific scenarios.

Snare/FSI is a wash. Troll regen wins out.

Math wise, at low health and mana, Troll Rgeneration only saves 1 Torpor (24 seconds) at best when getting to completely full health/mana. That is the math, unless you have full BiS and cleric buffs, then it may save 2 Torpors. That is nothing time-wise for a Shaman when soloing most targets and waiting for respawns. When you are at full health, Regeneration doesn't do anything. No Torpor Shaman will sit and med any decent chunk of health/mana. No Torpor Shaman canni dances.

FSI is way more useful in life saver situations than Snare Neck. You can root and run or gate easier than the 6 second cast time on Snare Neck, with possible resists. In outdoor zones, you can outrun most mobs with SoW. In dungeons, you don't have the ability to run to the zoneline anyway in most cases.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Math wise, at low health and mana, Troll Rgeneration only saves 1 Torpor (24 seconds) at best when getting to completely full health/mana. That is the math, unless you have full BiS and cleric buffs, then it may save 2 Torpors. That is nothing time-wise for a Shaman when soloing most targets and waiting for respawns. When you are at full health, Regeneration doesn't do anything. No Torpor Shaman will sit and med any decent chunk of health/mana. No Torpor Shaman canni dances.

FSI is way more useful in life saver situations than Snare Neck. You can root and run or gate easier than the 6 second cast time on Snare Neck, with possible resists. In outdoor zones, you can outrun most mobs with SoW. In dungeons, you don't have the ability to run to the zoneline anyway in most cases.

Your claims are all subjective based on a solo shaman build, not min max which encompasses all areas of shaman play in which regen wins out.

Ogre warriors have an objective min max advantage with FSI, ogre shamans do not.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your claims are all subjective based on a solo shaman build, not min max which encompasses all areas of shaman play in which regen wins out.

Ogre warriors have an objective min max advantage with FSI, ogre shamans do not.

Math is not subjective[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Torpor Shamans will be at full HP/Mana most of the time, due to how fast Torpor allows you to recover. It takes about 5 minutes to get from low HP and Mana back to full HP/Mana with Torpor, unless you are BiS with Aego. In 5 minutes, you are getting 400 HP from Troll Regen. That is actually only 1/3rd of a Torpor. So you are really only saving 8 seconds at best in MOST cases. One Torpor in total if you are BiS with Aego.

The only situation where racial bonuses matter on a Torpor Shaman is when you are soloing/duoing. One of the main reasons why people play Shamans is for their solo/duo power. If you only plan on grouping/raiding with a Shaman, then racial benefits do not matter. Play Barbarian for their slim body build and faster XP rate.

If a group of 3+ or a raid is getting it's ass kicked, one non-interrupted spell, or 80 HP regenerated will not save the group at all.