Please check my math on Troll vs Ogre Shaman

[whippetofspades]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

More broadly the point is there is such a massive soup of variables going on in these encounters that the potential for a brief stun to change the outcome of the fight for a shaman is virtually zero.

This is the big point that nobody seems able or willing to grasp. Every race of shaman can do all the same stuff so in the end it comes down to regen (quantifiable benefit) against FSI (unquantifiable benefit).

The only time you can try to determine the worth of FSI is against a single mob, which when slowed bashes about every 30 seconds, because that's the only time the variables can be apprehended well enough to work out if FSI does anything. Even then if you can't time casts within a 30 second window the problem is not the shaman's race. In circumstances with more than one mob, in these vague 'clutch' situations, the benefits of FSI are drowning in that variable soup and impossible to clearly determine.

Basically you can tell clearly and directly that regen does something significant. The same can't be said of FSI.

It's just such a no brainer. A core aspect of the class is significantly stronger in troll and Iksar than the other races. Nobody argues this for necro. It's like trying to say gnomish wall vision beats regen.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by whippetofspades [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is the big point that nobody seems able or willing to grasp. Every race of shaman can do all the same stuff so in the end it comes down to regen (quantifiable benefit) against FSI (unquantifiable benefit).

The only time you can try to determine the worth of FSI is against a single mob, which when slowed bashes about every 30 seconds, because that's the only time the variables can be apprehended well enough to work out if FSI does anything. Even then if you can't time casts within a 30 second window the problem is not the shaman's race. In circumstances with more than one mob, in these vague 'clutch' situations, the benefits of FSI are drowning in that variable soup and impossible to clearly determine.

Basically you can tell clearly and directly that regen does something significant. The same can't be said of FSI.

It's just such a no brainer. A core aspect of the class is significantly stronger in troll and Iksar than the other races. Nobody argues this for necro. It's like trying to say gnomish wall vision beats regen.

FSI is very quantifiable, this is why people prefer it! If you are willing to read my previous posts here, I give plenty of examples of quantifiable situations, ones I have experienced first hand.

FSI matters when you do not have control of a situation. Those kinds of situations include having unslowed mobs hitting you.

In a fully controlled situation, where the mob is slowed and not resisting, neither FSI or Regeneration will help you. Shaman racial bonuses only matter in specific scenarios once you have Torpor.

[Danth]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: By far the largest advantage gained from ogre bash resistance is a confidence boost for those players who are otherwise a little unsure of themselves. For that portion of players, the feeling of having a perceived advantage far outweighs the actual potency (or lack therof) of bash resistance. Beyond that, some folks simply hate being stunned now and then. None of this should be interpreted as condescending. Far from it: Feeling confident about a character and enjoying its mechanics are critical if a player intends to succeed at taking that character to 60 and beyond. Few players stick with a character very long if they feel like they made a mistake when they created it.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: By far the largest advantage gained from ogre bash resistance is a confidence boost for those players who are otherwise a little unsure of themselves. For that portion of players, the feeling of having a perceived advantage far outweighs the actual potency (or lack therof) of bash resistance. Beyond that, some folks simply hate being stunned now and then. None of this should be interpreted as condescending. Far from it: Feeling confident about a character and enjoying its mechanics are critical if a player intends to succeed at taking that character to 60 and beyond. Few players stick with a character very long if they feel like they made a mistake when they created it.

Danth

It isn't a perceived advantage, it is quantifiable. Min/Max Warriors use it because when you are stunned, you cannot auto attack (generate agro), and you cannot dodge/parry/riposte (you take extra damage). Min/Max Shamans use it to recover from bad situations a bit faster than non-Ogres would be able to. Ogre Shamans are also keeping dodge during those resisted stuns, even though dodge is a fairly rare occurrence due to the low skill.

Not getting stunned saves seconds, which can be critical in an uncontrolled situation. When fighting a tough mob, even at 60 with Torpor, you can die in two minutes or less if everything goes south. Seconds can be critical to stabilize a situation. FSI isn't guaranteed, but when it triggers, it will factually help you more than 2 minutes of Troll standing regeneration, which is 160 HP total.

If you are completely in control of the mob from start to finish (which is the normal case if you are skilled), then neither racial matters at all. This is why Shaman race isn't a huge deal endgame. The question is simply which racial gives you the most bonus at 60. The answer is FSI, even though it isn't a game changer.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It isn't a perceived advantage, it is quantifiable. Min/Max Warriors use it because when you are stunned, you cannot auto attack (generate agro), and you cannot dodge/parry/riposte (you take extra damage). Min/Max Shamans use it to recover from bad situations a bit faster than non-Ogres would be able to. Ogre Shamans are also keeping dodge during those resisted stuns, even though dodge is a fairly rare occurrence due to the low skill.

Not getting stunned saves seconds, which can be critical in an uncontrolled situation. When fighting a tough mob, even at 60 with Torpor, you can die in two minutes or less if everything goes south. Seconds can be critical to stabilize a situation. FSI isn't guaranteed, but when it triggers, it will factually help you more than 2 minutes of Troll standing regeneration, which is 160 HP total.

If you are completely in control of the mob from start to finish (which is the normal case if you are skilled), then neither racial matters at all. This is why Shaman race isn't a huge deal endgame. The question is simply which racial gives you the most bonus at 60. The answer is FSI, even though it isn't a game changer.

Let me reword your last sentence....

The answer is FSI(when you’re taking hits).

Raid and group shamans are not being hit 99.9% of the time. This is giving Trolls an advantage, your health will not always be at full, and the longer you aren’t at full which should be happening since you shouldn’t be torporing nonstop if you don’t have to, the more mana racial regen actually saves.

if you exclusively want to just go around soloing shit then yea I guess if snare isn’t needed on a mob then I’d probably want to be an ogre too in a solo situation. But literally every other scenario troll regen wins. Don’t care what your math says, ogres are NOT in any way better than trolls in group and raid situations where they aren’t tanking.

The fact that troll is a superior race in the majority of scenarios makes them the best min max race.

FSI is about convenience, not efficiency which is what the essence of min max is. Regen is indisputable efficiency, FSI is a security blanket.

[kjs86z]

As I said many pages ago:

Ogre is best for players that will hit 60, acquire all spells, and go after very difficult solo targets. If farming plat / items alone is your favorite part of the game, you go Ogre.

Troll is best for players that plan on grouping to 60, focusing on raiding or small group content.

Barb is best for those that like being a Polar Bear.

Iksar is for people that want to be a lizard.


That being said, a barb shaman with all 60 spells can solo the same targets as the ogre. The ogre just has a slightly easier time.

[Naethyn]

Iksar has the best questlines.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I made a few videos to show how Torpor Shamans regenerate with Torpor. People seem to think Torpor Shamans are not at 100% HP a good portion of the time. Only when they are actively in combat or casting will they be under 100% HP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc

This first video is me Torporing from low HP and Mana to full HP and Mana. The total length of the video is 3 minutes 47 seconds. A Troll would have regenerated 304 extra HP compared to an Ogre in this situation. That is 1/4th of a Torpor. You are saving casting one Torpor at best to get that 300 HP back. That is 24 seconds. Then you will be at 100% HP and NOT regenerating until your next battle or casting session. Regeneration isn't very useful when soloing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq39ybDWx-k&t

Here is a second video showing a simulated scenario of raid buffing 10 people with Riotous Health and Focus of Spirit, with two Primal Avatars thrown in. The total time is 12 minutes and 45 seconds to cast all the buffs AND get back to 100% HP, which is where you will stay in a raid a lot of the time, since raiding has a lot of waiting. This video is a little longer than a real situation, because I waited until 100% HP to re-FoS myself. This was to make sure people didn't claim I was healing with FoS to reduce the video time. A Troll would have regenerated 1004 HP in this time. That is basically 3/4th's of a Torpor. You are STILL only saving 24 seconds, or one Torpor. Then you will be at 100% HP, and not regenerating. Regeneration isn't very useful when raiding.

In grouping, you are saving a ton of HP most of the time due to having to tank less, and having a much higher total DPS with more people. Shaman soloing can be slow. You certainly aren't going to be spending more mana than the raid video I posted above in most cases. Regeneration isn't very useful when grouping.

I am not saying Regeneration doesn't help. I still use Fungi Staff, as shown in both videos. But it is not very useful once you have Torpor. FSI will help you in more situations than the low yield regeneration from Trolls, and the fact that you will be at 100% HP a good portion of the time. Any Torpor Shaman that isn't Torporing/Cannibalizing back to full life and mana is just playing the class inefficiently.

If you want to argue Trolls are better if you are super lazy and don't want to Torpor/Cannibalize, then I guess they are better. But in that scenario, you are less efficient than Ogres/Barbarians who play the class correctly. This ruins the whole argument for Regeneration anyway, since the main point when arguing for Regeneration is it allows you to be more efficient.

[Jibartik]

Can't believe I watched both of these videos.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Can't believe I watched both of these videos.

It is strangely mesmerizing to watch a Shaman work, even though they are just doing the same thing over and over ad-nauseam[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]