BDA to Phinigel

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Red_Messiah [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Randoming loot causes as much drama as anything else - got 3 necros all waiting on that last piece for their epic?

Tell me the guy waiting the longest isn't going to get upset that the guy playing an alt who didn't make his character til 3-4 months ago wins the piece. While his 1-2 year wait continues...

There's no perfect system.

If there's drama, that's a problem with the person, not the system.

You make an argument about 3 hypothetical necros waiting for the last piece of his epic. Is the epic the only piece of loot these necros have a chance of getting or will ever aspire to get? Is the last piece of the epic the only necro usable raid loot that drops anywhere in the game? Who says every necro is entitled to their epic? Certainly not anyone on these boards.

Put your hypothetical situation of 3 necros waiting 1-2 years on their last epic piece in your DKP world -- the wait continues just the same for 2 of the 3 necros, except 2 of the 3 necros never had a chance at getting it in the first place. If I were those necros, I'd take a 1 in 3 chance over a 0 chance any day.

A guild can agree as an entity what mains can roll on and what alts can roll on, just like a pick up group in seb can agree to give the first gem that drops to the cleric. But who needs social contracts when DKP can magically do all of that for you, amiright?

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Juryiel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You ask for numbers, but I would like you to generate numbers of /random, and include people's behavior in this simulation, as well as the structure of Everquest.

I said I'd like to see some numbers of a DKP guild vs a Clue-like guild, because I believe it'd be interesting and put to rest a lot of this argument. I did not mean for you to personally go and fetch me those numbers. This is RnF, I don't expect anyone to go to such lengths.

And again just to give a direct example of one of the many, MANY things that make your naively conceived behavior of /random actually be bad:

Imagine you have a guild of 10 people and 5 of them raid 100% and another 5 of them raid 20%. They spend 20 game hours figuring out an encounter and getting 0 loot. So the hardcore people invest 100 man-hours and the casual people invest 20 man-hours. The hardcore people have invested 80 man-hours more, and both groups got the same amount of loot, 0.

After the first successful completion, the hardcore and the casuals will have a chance to get loot proportional to their attendance for that ONE raid, but if you take into account all the previous raids, the casuals get a much better loot to time ratio, and the hardcore don't catch up to their fair share for a number of raids after. They actually will never get to their fair share, as it's bounded by the number of man hours spent on failures. But even to get close, it then takes several raids. If you're doing difficult or new things often, you can see how this shafts people who invest more time.

You make a fair point, but I would argue that the 100%ers are still getting more loot over the long haul, because the 20% probably isn't answering those 4am batphones, attending the mid-day raids, etc. The 20%ers are more likely to be fighting over the same loot as the other 20%ers at prime-time, leaving the off-hour raid loot to the 100%ers.

Also, why should failure count? I've certainly never been rewarded for any of my failures.

[icedwards]

Your entire argument for /random assumes everyone is 100% reasonable (they aren't). The day some low RA or new member wins an epic drop or chase BIS over your neckbeards will be the day those neckbeards start looking for other options. The reality is the officers would rather appease those high RA members who are more likely to be the ones who actually get things done in the guild.

[Bruno]

Never in my combined probably 10+ years of playing this game have I been in a guild dumb enough to use /rand as their primary loot distribution process. I mean, you gotta be fuckin' trolling to be serious about that.

[Cecily]

We had a day 1 applicant win a WToV Chain BP last night. Non-dkp raid and pick 3 random was the agreed upon rules going in, but yeah... That's random randomness. Not a fan of that system. But a second BP dropped on our last kill and my now ranger's armor matches so.. Yay.

[Hoozi]

Everyone loves random when it works for them, but as soon as it doesnt work out in their favor, then its the worst thing ever.

[Susano]

Ravager is either caught in one of those situations where you know you're wrong and just run with it for arguments sake or he's just really dumb.

Third option is trolling, he'll probably fall back on that to try and save face eventually.

"Remember that time I argued for days about something retarded, I sure got them rustled!"

[Raev]

People underestimate the variance of random loot. Once I lost 17 fungi tunic rolls in a row - in 3 man groups. Another time I won an IP, Torpor, another IP, and the Prince sword in Chardok - 4 out of like 6 rolls in a 12 man raid. I gave the last two away to Xoquil and Lavarian because I was feeling so bad at that point. It's simply a terrible system.

I am not a big fan of DKP either. I hate the fact that I will get a Monk item for either 500 or 1 DKP depending on whether or not my other monk pals show up. There are all sorts of opportunities for shenanigans there as pointed out previously. And lastly, you get the retards who insist on hoarding DKP for months while running around in rags to get That One Status Item rather than spending it on 10 other items that would make their character much better. But DKP is much better than random.

My favorite system is Loot Factor: every item is assigned a fixed value, and the system sums your total loot value over the past few months and divides it by your total attendance. This solves most of these problems, though I think any system needs a loot council override here and there to prevent major idiocy.

[bigbard1]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People underestimate the variance of random loot. Once I lost 17 fungi tunic rolls in a row - in 3 man groups. Another time I won an IP, Torpor, another IP, and the Prince sword in Chardok - 4 out of like 6 rolls in a 12 man raid. I gave the last two away to Xoquil and Lavarian because I was feeling so bad at that point. It's simply a terrible system.

I am not a big fan of DKP either. I hate the fact that I will get a Monk item for either 500 or 1 DKP depending on whether or not my other monk pals show up. There are all sorts of opportunities for shenanigans there as pointed out previously. And lastly, you get the retards who insist on hoarding DKP for months while running around in rags to get That One Status Item rather than spending it on 10 other items that would make their character much better. But DKP is much better than random.

My favorite system is Loot Factor: every item is assigned a fixed value, and the system sums your total loot value over the past few months and divides it by your total attendance. This solves most of these problems, though I think any system needs a loot council override here and there to prevent major idiocy.

Did anyone read this?

[Cecily]

Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People underestimate the variance of random loot. Once I lost 17 fungi tunic rolls in a row - in 3 man groups. Another time I won an IP, Torpor, another IP, and the Prince sword in Chardok - 4 out of like 6 rolls in a 12 man raid. I gave the last two away to Xoquil and Lavarian because I was feeling so bad at that point. It's simply a terrible system.

It took me 21 rolls in mostly 6 person groups to win my hiero. Got my fungi on my first. Random is feast or famine. DKP more or less allows an even distribution of pixels and sets a limiting factor lacking in loot council or random. But seriously is anyone dumb enough to use random loot distribution past like.. Seb groups?