Game of Thrones

[Thorondor]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well she did burn alive that shaman who was actually pretty poorly written in the TV show. in the books it's much more clear that the blood magic was an accident (essentially jorah's fault). The TV show makes it sound like she was plotting the whole time. Drogo died because he was a moron. The kid died because jorah made a mistake and dany wouldn't accept the fate she was delivered.

Then you have the noble(s) in mereen who she killed without any evidence they had done anything wrong.

Danny has been slowly falling down the whole series.

And, she's totally trying to steal her nephew's throne.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Patriam1066 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

She burned Sam’s brother alive for the crime of being an impetuous and loyal youth

She’s her father. You’re just a Targaryen lover

Right, she did bad stuff. But she never fell as a result, and thus she can't be redeemed.

To be a "redemption arc" in the literary sense you have to have a character who falls, morally (usually in the story itself, but it could be before the story starts). They have to go from that "fallen" state to a "redeemed" state, by accomplishing some heroic task(s).

Theo didn't just do bad stuff. He went from being a decent guy to murdering children, and "fell" to become both symbolically and literally less than a human being as a result (ie. Reek). But he accomplished several heroic acts (eg. rescuing his sister, and most recently buying Bran an extra five seconds) which ultimately led to him no longer being fallen and instead being redeemed. No one has to say "you're redeemed now" for it to be a redemption arc, but the fact that they are redeemed has to be signified, and in this case the show's writers decided to literally have Bran say it.

Notice the arc in all that. Theo falls (morally), completes heroic tasks, then is redeemed. Neither Melisandre or Danny has that, because neither ever falls. Melisandre gets a little bummed after her man dies, but she never once is like "I did anything wrong". Then she shows up at the end and starts some fires: cool but not a redemption because she never went from being a bad person to being a good person. And then afterward the story certainly didn't signify that she ended up good (eg. if she had died in a crucifix position, for instance, that would be a standard literary symbol of redemption).

Danny does some bad stuff, but it's par for the course for her: killing the fat guy's family wasn't really any different than crucifying those slavers. She's not going from good person, to bad person, back to good; she's the same (relatively one-dimensional) morally gray person throughout.

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Danny has been slowly falling down the whole series.

I think you could make a case for that (though again I see her as remaining the same throughout the story), but if so it's still not a redemption arc unless she dramatically changes who she is to become a "good" person (with narrative signification of as much just before she dies) in the last three episodes. And given that even recently:

Originally Posted by Thorondor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

she's totally trying to steal her nephew's throne.

I think any such arc would be very short and unsatisfying.

But again, I don't think that's her story. I think her story is all about her build up (and up, and up) in spite of her flaws ... leading to an inevitable epic (and final/ending) fall because of them. But given the way things are going, she'll probably get a "happily ever after" ending instead, along with like half the cast (why didn't more people die in this episode?!?)

[Thorondor]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Right, she did bad stuff. But she never fell as a result, and thus she can't be redeemed.

To be a "redemption arc" in the literary sense you have to have a character who falls, morally (usually in the story itself, but it could be before the story starts). They have to go from that "fallen" state to a "redeemed" state, by accomplishing some heroic task(s).

Theo didn't just do bad stuff. He went from being a decent guy to murdering children, and "fell" to become both symbolically and literally less than a human being as a result (ie. Reek). But he accomplished several heroic acts (eg. rescuing his sister, and most recently buying Bran an extra five seconds) which ultimately led to him no longer being fallen and instead being redeemed. No one has to say "you're redeemed now" for it to be a redemption arc, but the fact that they are redeemed has to be signified, and in this case the show's writers decided to literally have Bran say it.

Notice the arc in all that. Theo falls (morally), completes heroic tasks, then is redeemed. Neither Melisandre or Danny has that, because neither ever falls. Melisandre gets a little bummed after her man dies, but she never once is like "I did anything wrong". Then she shows up at the end and starts some fires: cool but not a redemption because she never went from being a bad person to being a good person. And then afterward the story certainly didn't signify that she ended up good (eg. if she had died in a crucifix position, for instance, that would be a standard literary symbol of redemption).

Danny does some bad stuff, but it's par for the course for her: killing the fat guy's family wasn't really any different than crucifying those slavers. She's not going from good person, to bad person, back to good; she's the same (relatively one-dimensional) morally gray person throughout.



I think you could make a case for that (though again I see her as remaining the same throughout the story), but if so it's still not a redemption arc unless she dramatically changes who she is to become a "good" person (with narrative signification of as much just before she dies) in the last three episodes. And given that even recently:



I think any such arc would be very short and unsatisfying.

But again, I don't think that's her story. I think her story is all about her build up (and up, and up) in spite of her flaws ... leading to an inevitable epic (and final/ending) fall because of them. But given the way things are going, she'll probably get a "happily ever after" ending instead, along with like half the cast (why didn't more people die in this episode?!?)

I'm just glad Jorah died. That guy's such a fucking douchebag pussywhoop

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Thorondor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm just glad Jorah died. That guy's such a fucking douchebag pussywhoop

At least someone did. But when a fucking apocalypse of zombies overruns your castle in Game of Thrones (the same show that gave us the Red Wedding), there should be a lot more significant dead characters.

/rant off

[Thorondor]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

At least someone did. But when a fucking apocalypse of zombies overruns your castle in Game of Thrones (the same show that gave us the Red Wedding), there should be a lot more significant dead characters.

/rant off

I wonder if Sam is gonna take his sword back, now. The entire series is Sam's redemption arc, fat little coward no more! He beast mode now!

[Wonkie]

im glad theon dead

[Thorondor]

Originally Posted by Wonkie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

im glad theon dead

Yep. We laughed when he charged the night king and his entire band of white walkers after that atta boy.

[DMN]

Theon, I'm glad you are a moron. I'll sit safely over here waiting for Rey Mary Sue Stark to lay down the smack because girl powah and sheet.

[NegaStoat]

I wrote earlier in this thread that I enjoyed the episode and the writing due to my ability to turn my brain off for a show that really doesn't take itself seriously. No one could ever enjoy a Star Trek movie if they're unable to do this.

That said, I re watched the battle and considered how many incredibly dumb things were depicted in the story, ranging from the dothraki being thrown away into the darkness to fight blind against a total foe count they couldn't see (seriously guys, chuck some flaming rocks from the trebuchets out there first so they can at least see what's up as they go in)... To the unsullied standing braced and ready, as part of the plan, IN FRONT of the pits instead of the huge moat / pit being in front of their location instead... seriously... To Bran not once Warging out to take control of a Dragon and do something stupid neat with it, which is more or less the reason why a lot of folks dialed in to watch the show in the first place.

And then there's the whole business of Bran being used as bait for the Night King and I'm left wonder, as God as my witness, as to WHAT their plan was for actually taking the big bad out in setting Bran up in that isolated location in the first place. Yes, Arya's teleport "hah, gotcha!" stab was a complete asspull, and no, it was not a part of anyone's plan. Not even remotely.

I enjoyed elements of the episode. I fully agree I would have enjoyed it more if the script had been given some more review for making plans and reactions of the situation more realistic. And yeah, on the other hand the fight between Oberyn Martell and the Mountain had real effort put in for a realistic duel and was a case of the show taking itself seriously so... Maybe turning off my brain shouldn't have been required.

[Solist]

Second sons vs golden company.

Go.