Mage pet nerf 100% bot now....

[loramin]

You guys keep pretending like charming requires some amazing feat of brilliance, some super secret technique, or some rare magical item. It doesn't.

A Druid in their teens (with no gob ring) can run themselves out to South Karana, charm elephants, and make them kill each other, using just two spells from their spell list: Charm and Invis. And here on P99, they can get significantly better XP doing it than they can by root/rotting.

You can't tell me (well, you can, but I won't buy it) that ... with literally thousands of Druids playing on live, all of whom (like all EQ players) desperately wanted to level faster ... none of them ever tried using two of the spells Verant gave them together. But unlike here, Druids on live didn't (by a huge majority at least) stick with it ... perhaps because P99 isn't properly emulating live, and charming is lower risk and/or higher reward than it was on live ...

[Snaggles]

I know this is EQ and we all prop up weird strawman arguments for Class A vs Class B but charming doesnt really affect mages at all unless you're using puppet strings.

I know this may be shocking in 2021 but things werent fair in 1999. Some classes just had issues and the dev's response was essentially "deal with it and pay us the monthly sub".

Mages:
* Great pets, equal and more versatile than a necro. Can buy stacks of the regent for next to nothing off a vendor.
* Good nukes for non-raid stuff. Higher burst dps than necro by far
* Best damage shield
* Mala/malaise (get an orb of tashan and a midnight mallet, figure it out)
* mod rods, coth, summons, etc

It's a solid mid performer to high performer depending on what you are doing with it. Even with a 62 hitting, fairly tanky, backstabbing pet nothing to sneeze at.

Would I like another 70 hitting 210 backstabbing water pet? Hell ya. Will I sack my toon and use the proceeds to gear out another alt? No way.

[Scalem]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can't tell me (well, you can, but I won't buy it) that ... with literally thousands of Druids playing on live, all of whom (like all EQ players) desperately wanted to level faster ... none of them ever tried using two of the spells Verant gave them together.

Prove it, prove that not a single one of those thousands of druids ever used charm to level.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You guys keep pretending like charming requires some amazing feat of brilliance, some super secret technique, or some rare magical item. It doesn't.

A Druid in their teens (with no gob ring) can run themselves out to South Karana, charm elephants, and make them kill each other, using just two spells from their spell list: Charm and Invis. And here on P99, they can get significantly better XP doing it than they can by root/rotting.

You can't tell me (well, you can, but I won't buy it) that ... with literally thousands of Druids playing on live, all of whom (like all EQ players) desperately wanted to level faster ... none of them ever tried using two of the spells Verant gave them together. But unlike here, Druids on live didn't (by a huge majority at least) stick with it ... perhaps because P99 isn't properly emulating live, and charming is lower risk and/or higher reward than it was on live ...

Druid charming is also more risky because you can’t tash so it’s not really relevant to this discussion.

At any rate, again charming was more dangerous because for the most part live was laggy and slow as heck due to internet speeds and computer tech. In 1999 a charm break was essentially a death sentence because things were so laggy you couldn’t instantly react (and no one used clickies to get rid of the GCD as part of a min max strategy to be able to lock the mob down even quicker). You willfully ignore all kinds of other reasons why in 1999 it may not have been as prevalent as it is on P99 (by Velious people were charm soloing everywhere)…you’re just arguing in bad faith at this point because you have no evidence and don’t want to acknowledge other possibilities than the one you want to see happen.

[Synphul]

What I remember from early live was:

A.) Most people (almost everyone) leveled in rags, and I mean rags, for the first couple expansions. Seeing a twinked enchanter was rare and they didn't stack HP/INT/CHA like we do now on P99. If a pet broke they went through your 300HP pretty quick. Add in any amount of lag and latency and you were done before you knew what happened. It's rare to see anyone leveling in rags now unless it is intentional. One charm break was probably enough to scare off 99% of players from charming.

B.) Groups were trying to fight yellow and red cons constantly so charm would have been less effective and would be practically worthless as some people describe. This is a point I don't see any of you addressing and it was the most common way of leveling in early EQ for whatever reason. Along with people thinking this was the best way to level, you think they had any patience for someone trying to charm in the group?

C.) Power gamers in 1999 are not nearly the same as power gamers in 2021 as far as knowledge of game of how game mechanics worked because the genre itself was still pretty new. Now a new game comes out and people use experiences from previous games to test the mechanics harder and faster.

So, yes, I believe people were 'dumber' when it came to EQ for the first year and it took longer than some of you think for people to figure stuff out, especially if we're talking casuals which was the majority of the player base and what the average person experienced and interacted with.

Wasn't there even a thread about the rumors and stuff people thought back then that was just completely out there but was regurgitated constantly? There's a lot of assumptions here that gamers back then 'would have figured it out' because they see how people figure things out so quickly now, but you forget to realize gamers have spent the last 20+ year perfecting min/max strats and how to test/manipulate mechanics. In 1999 the amount of people capable of doing something like that was very very slim and you think they wanted to share all their secrets with PUG#12321? Secrets were hard kept in early EQ.

IDK about Druid charming because I don't ever remember even experimenting with it in early live. I was just there to SOW, heal, and port my friends. That doesn't mean others with more game knowledge weren't doing it. I still run into enchanters on P99 that somehow make it to 50+ without charming and when asked in groups to charm they either ignore you or say they don't like charming because it's too much of a hassle. Even on P99 where charming is supposedly too easy people still don't want to do it all the time. Add in more fear/uncertainty and not wanting to be the focus of your groups ire for dying/wiping to a charm pet back in 1999/2000, where was the motivation to try with your shitty gear and limited knowledge for 99% of the player base?

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Scalem [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Prove it, prove that not a single one of those thousands of druids ever used charm to level.

Umm ... I'm not arguing that ... I'm arguing the exact opposite. I'm arguing they did try ... and that most stopped, because it wasn't the clearly better way to level, the way it is here.

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Druid charming is also more risky because you can’t tash so it’s not really relevant to this discussion.

Translation: I give up: charming is unclassicly easy here ... but as long as no one's threatening to classically weaken the class I play, I don't need to argue [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

PS. Yes CD I know that's not what you are saying ... but you can't just throw out obvious evidence charming is unclassic because it refutes your theory.

[Dolalin]

I used to charm griffawns in NK in fall of 99 as a druid. I had 200-400ms pings and I remember it being decent XP if it worked but I'd die so much that it was never worth the gains. With low fps you run and react slower too, so more risk.

It's one of those things where it was a death by a thousand cuts really. Plus no gcd reset until velious because nobody knew what it was.

But anyways that's a bit off topic.

[Sabin76]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Druid charming is also more risky because you can’t tash so it’s not really relevant to this discussion.

At any rate, again charming was more dangerous because for the most part live was laggy and slow as heck due to internet speeds and computer tech. In 1999 a charm break was essentially a death sentence because things were so laggy you couldn’t instantly react (and no one used clickies to get rid of the GCD as part of a min max strategy to be able to lock the mob down even quicker). You willfully ignore all kinds of other reasons why in 1999 it may not have been as prevalent as it is on P99 (by Velious people were charm soloing everywhere)…you’re just arguing in bad faith at this point because you have no evidence and don’t want to acknowledge other possibilities than the one you want to see happen.

Counterpoint:
The devs have made it perfectly clear that they are willing to make #NotClassic changes to make the "experience" more like classic. If people didn't charm because it was too dangerous with shitty hardware and connections, then isn't it reasonable to assume that the devs can, and even should, make changes to make it more dangerous for us? For a specific example, I remind you of your favorite forumite (plus a couple others) buying up thousands of gnoll scrolls...

[cd288]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Umm ... I'm not arguing that ... I'm arguing the exact opposite. I'm arguing they did try ... and that most stopped, because it wasn't the clearly better way to level, the way it is here.



Translation: I give up: charming is unclassicly easy here ... but as long as no one's threatening to classically weaken the class I play, I don't need to argue [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

PS. Yes CD I know that's not what you are saying ... but you can't just throw out obvious evidence charming is unclassic because it refutes your theory.

You don’t have any obvious evidence. You have zero evidence besides your own opinion that “EVERYONE KNOWS IM RIGHT THAT CHARM IS DIFFERENT ON P99.” I’ve never seen anyone besides Donald Trump argue that they are right based on their own opinion and zero evidence the way you do lol

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Sabin76 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Counterpoint:
The devs have made it perfectly clear that they are willing to make #NotClassic changes to make the "experience" more like classic. If people didn't charm because it was too dangerous with shitty hardware and connections, then isn't it reasonable to assume that the devs can, and even should, make changes to make it more dangerous for us? For a specific example, I remind you of your favorite forumite (plus a couple others) buying up thousands of gnoll scrolls...

Oh for sure. But as I said in an earlier comment, if that’s the route we’re taking then there’s tons of other things that should be changed as well.