Necro or enchanter...Go!

[diplo]

i'd roll a mage.

just kidding they suck now.

[Arterian]

Great feedback.

What level do you think an enchanter needs to reach to give it an honest shot? I know they increase in power dramatically as they increase in level.

[Tecmos Deception]

I don't think enchanters START coming into their own until 29. Honestly they get stronger every level all the way to 60. You start to be able to salvage bad situations, kill tough mobs relative to your level, and stuff like that probably in the 30s I guess?

[Ando]

Tecmos any leveling tips for a lvl 22 enchanter? I find grouping to be painfully slow, but can't find any good charm solo spots. EK Crag Spiders are always overcamped not to mention boring.

I've heard enchanters get stronger as they level, but right now I feel very weak compared to my alts of similar level.

[Vellaen]

Originally Posted by Arterian [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What level do you think an enchanter needs to reach to give it an honest shot? I know they increase in power dramatically as they increase in level.

You'll have the first versions of most of your signature tools by level 16 (Breeze, haste, charm, mez, root, slow, Tash, etc). But what makes Enchanters so powerful isn't the tools per se, but rather how they scale. The best example, which I'm shamelessly paraphrasing from Loraen's guide, is with slows: a 25% debuff on a mob that hits for 40 is barely worth the mana. A 70% slow on a mob that hits for 120 turns Rangers into viable tanks.

By 20 you can charm a mob that hits half again as hard as a mage or necro's pet. By 30 everyone you group with will love you for your buffs. By 40 you start to see the gains in mana efficiency (how many other classes have a level 4 spell that costs 20 mana that they never stop using?). By 50 everything at your fingertips makes you feel like a god. By 60, you pretty much are one.

[Tecmos Deception]

I believe I was killing random aviaks and centaurs (and then gnolls) in SK from 20-30. Maybe spent some time in the entrance of paw in that period also. Early 30s are kind of a haze, I never liked those levels... FM maybe? Upper 30s to 50 I killed a lot of bloodgill goblins, then did CoM to 54 and HS to 60.

[Uteunayr]

Just wanted to address a few small points (EDIT: And as always, my lack of wit has made that a terribly long post, so I put a TL;DR):

1) Seems very weird to me for EoT to be brought up when talking about soloing. A Necro shouldn't be using EoT most of the time, and should avoid situations in which pets have to tank if they do not have a charm pet. The thing has 2.7k HP, and shit for armor. Our pets are not durable. Necro pets are best understood as another DoT that take material components, but remain persistent, with the potential to steal XP if you rely on it too much.

EoTs are shit tanks, and you always prioritize a Charm pet over an EoT. The one main situation in using an EoT against a summoner/caster, you would root the mob, send your EoT, and FD your aggro onto the EoT. Back your EoT off, this way all casts and shit go to the EoT, rather than you, and the EoT maintains the non-health regen state of the mob. Stand up, lay some DoTs, re-FD, and so on. This is the primary way in which a Necromancer should be approaching a Summoner/Caster in the root rotting sense to avoid summoning as a major issue. Manaskin (damage absorption) is more than enough to smoothen this over, although Necros do pay 10.6pp a pop relative to Enchanter's free cast.

But other than this situation, EoT isn't really something to be discussing other than it being meh. Favor the undead charm, or the rogue for backstabbing. The Minion is a far superior pet to EoT, as backstabs are simply damn good to have pumping out from your pet. EoT is only there to screw with summoners and spellcasters in the indoor root rot (as outdoor you should prefer fear kiting mobs, which is still used in higher levels, such as with seafuries).

2) Necromancers have a variety of different tools from Enchanters. Not saying they have more, or they have better, only that they do have a good number of them. We have 2 DAs, FD, a clickie invis for aggro shenanigans, undead lulls, charms, no-random breaking undead charm, instant-kill to undead, a stun/mez, a 3 minute root, and the most efficient mana generation in the game.

This is not to say that a Necromancer has the same or better tools than an Enchanter for charm killing indoor mobs in close quarters which summon or spellcast which also cannot be rooted, only that I agree wholeheartedly when it is said that Necromancers must work with more finesse and effort to achieve what an enchanter can. But that is the cost of having a variety of styles to fit your given RL situation, such as if you need to frequently AFK and lack FD, and the cost of having things like a rez, self-evac, the mana engine, and the like. And honestly, that is totally worth it to me.

3) If you are having issues with FD as a Necro, you need to understand first that roamers do not easily reset their aggro, and often you will need to /q afterwards. Second, once FDed, you can stand up and pop COS immediately to prevent further aggro so long as nothing that was on you that is a roamer has see-invis. These things negate a wide array of issues fellow Necromancers approach me with about FD. FD isn't buggy, you just need to understand it.

4) Root rotting and fear kiting are still efficient in situations in which you wish for more RL freedom, or where you can reliably have your rogue pet backstabbing a bunch (fear kiting primarily), or in which you are truly in a single camp (i.e., no other mob of comparable level nearby to charm). For example, I would much rather be doing the Pained Soul camp as a Necro than an Enchanter. It's boring, it takes forever, I'd rather not rip my eyes out maintaining a charm at the same time. For fear kiting, I'd rather be a Necro on seafuries than an Enchanter. Sure, enchanting a seafury and going one on one is nice, but I rather enjoy having a rogue pet dishing out backstabs on a dotted up seafury. I have no way of empirically vouching for this being superior, only that I have felt I kill them much faster with a rogue pet and fear, than with a charm. But in such a case, I'd rather be a quadder anyway.

In other words, the efficacy of Necromancers versus Enchanter is entirely situational upon what you're seeking. If you're seeking an easy time taking down the highest end mobs, go Enchanter, because their ability to stun/CC/charm anything is unparalleled in this endeavor. But know that not everything of value is high level indoor mobs, and Necromancers make up for the greater difficulty in greater ease and independence in a wide array of different parts of the game, and in other types of camps. Pick what seems best for your desires.

5) I wholeheartedly agree that you should look at both full packages and take each for what they are, and then assess what you like the most. The answer for me was a resounding Necromancer (obviously). I value the independence the class allows me, the variety it gives me so that it never becomes boring, and the huge skill cap that allows me to continually better myself in the variety of different play styles a Necromancer must master. Nothing to me compares to balancing healing, twitching, and DPSing (especially if you can charm) all at the same time. Nothing is more intellectual stimulating in this game to me.

TL;DR: Necromancers and Enchanters have different tools. Think about how much you value their respective tools:

Necro: FD/2 DA/1 target Mez/strongest efficient mana regen/3 min root/component damage absorption/pet variety/undead charm/self-evac/component 93% rez/undead lull VS Enchanter: Memblur/stuns/AE mez/single mez/any target lulls/any target charms/free damage absorption/3 minute root/weaker efficient mana regen.

Pick the one that seems most attuned to what you want. I went Necromancer, and I have never regretted that choice. My only regret is being a fucking Dark Elf. Fucking curses to the person who wrote the old Necro wiki page saying they are effectively the same. >.>

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The one main situation in using an EoT against a summoner/caster, you would root the mob, send your EoT, and FD your aggro onto the EoT. Back your EoT off, this way all casts and shit go to the EoT, rather than you, and the EoT maintains the non-health regen state of the mob. Stand up, lay some DoTs, re-FD, and so on. This is the primary way in which a Necromancer should be approaching a Summoner/Caster in the root rotting sense to avoid summoning as a major issue.

Good shit.

I always knew necros had ridiculous tactics like this available to them but having never played a high-level necro, I never figured any of them out or badgered other necros about them.

Edit - loraen reminded me that he actually told me he thought of doing this with a necro, but his description of the process didn't sink in on me for whatever reason to realize how cool it could be [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Potus]

Necros are very fun from 1-50. After 50 please realize that their is a considerable and noticeable drop in power. Verant hated necromancers and the two expansions reflect a neglect of Necromancers. You see it in the pets, which aren't very good post 50, and you see it in a lot of anti-necromancer gameplay changes, things like mobs summoning, mobs being unfearable, mobs being unsnareable, etc.

I think both are a lot of fun and you won't be disappointed by either.

[Rec]

I see the two great necro and enchanter role models saying their own classes are both the best. That's boring!