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#13
02-15-2015, 07:12 PM
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DE make the best necro because they are so awesome and look the best in a blighted robe, just say no to wolverine gloves and leather caps tho.
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#14
02-15-2015, 07:28 PM
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My first character here was Uteunayr, a level 60 Dark Elf Necromancer. While leveling, I took a great deal of notes about my leveling, and wrote a guide based on that information. You can find that here: http://wiki.project1999.com/Sesserdr...Strategy_Guide However, as I played my necromancer, I started to realize I was making up excuses for why I was not an Iksar. "Dark Elf hide is great! You can IVU + IV!", but then that was nerfed so it was just IV, and Circlet of Shadow does that itself. Oh well... I am already 60! So I decided to reroll, and go Iksar. There are a few reasons for this: 1- The experience penalty is temporary. Regardless of whether or not the leveling breaks even, is faster, or is slower (and this would change at each level range based on the lich spell and the regeneration, as well as camp type), there is one ultimate truth in regard to experience penalties in EverQuest. The effective character level adjustment done by D&D is balanced off by capping your max level. That doesn't happen in EQ. Regardless of whether you are a Dark Elf, or an Iksar, both will end up 60. At this point, other than maintaining your level, the XP penalty does nothing to you. XP Penalties are a temporary problem. 2- The faction problem is temporary. There are plenty of places to vendor as an Iksar necromancer around the world. You can bank anywhere with FD. And you're already pretty much hated as a necromancer anyway. And once you're done leveling by slaughtering anything that looks at you funny, you can just faction back up. Faction penalties are a temporary problem, for most factions. There are some factions you'll probably never fix, but fuck those factions. They called you a mean name. 3- Regeneration is not something easily replaced by a Necromancer. You get Aura of Battle (+2), the Coldain Ring (+10), and Zlandie's Heart (+5). So a total of +17. With the standard +7, you can reach +24. With Demi Lich providing for a -32 HP per tick (which is bugged, btw, as it should be in the -50 or more range). So with how it stands on this server, the best a non-Iksar can do is to have -8 while sitting. This is more when standing or FD. As an Iksar, where you have +18 instead of +7, that means you're actually looking at +3 per tick while sitting with Demi Lich on. If we could wear a Fungi, this advantage would be gone. Regeneration is forever. 4- A lower base int. Although intelligence and more raw mana helps when leveling up, again, this is a temporary problem. For this part, however, we need to think a bit about the gearing: Sub 200 int, you get +~12 mana per 1 int. Over 200, it drops to ~6. For health, you get ~2hp per 1 point in stamina. I do not know what it drops to in post-200. Once either stat hits 255, the relative value of that stat drops to an absolute 0, as you gain no further stat post-255. This means any excess is "wasted" stat. The first knee jerk reaction is to say "Well, with more base int, it frees up more slots to have HP gear!", and in Kunark, that much is true. It does. However, come Velious, gear is heavily stacked with Int, Stamina, HP, and Mana. So your best HP item will most often also include a hefty dose of intellect. Lets just assume for the moment that you're in it for the long haul, and you're going to have all the best gear (at least according to the list on the wiki), biased toward HP, you'll get +163 intelligence. For an Erudite, this means 117 + 163 = 280, or 25 "wasted" stat from the get go. That is, of course, assuming you have the best items for HP, and you don't dump the extra 5 into Int. If you do dump it into Int, it pops up to 30 wasted. With an Iksar, however, at 85 int base, you're looking at 248. Add in 5 points from the left over from the 25 stamina, 5 int dump, and you're looking at 253. Go 23/7, and you will have a perfect 255, wasting no stats, and maximizing your health pool. Now, as for the leveling speed argument, here is generally how it flows: Lifetap is super, super, super inefficient. It is so inefficient, it slows you down. The less lifetaps you have to use, the more mana you have free to root another mob, to cast another dot, to do other stuff. Lifetaps peak at 1.77 DPM (Damage per Mana, also HP per Mana). Lifetap dots peak at 2.02 DPM. Meanwhile, a spell like Splurt has a sexy 6.1875 DPM, Plague 4.05 DPM, and Pyrocrour a 5.0 DPM. You're talking, now, a minimum of 2x more efficient, up to just a tad over 3x. The slower your HP falls, the less lifetaps you use, so the more mana you free up for your efficient spell lines. Just as lower level lifetaps are less efficient than the numbers I listed here, the other spell lines are also less efficient, but they grow in approximately the same proportion (the blood line being generally very efficient, while lifetaps are generally the least efficient). So I leveled up a second necromancer, Sesserdrix, to level 60. At lower levels, I was leveling slower. It was clear. However, one thing I noticed (and this can be good or bad depending on how you view it) is I didn't even really start noticing the HP loss of Lich until level 34 with Call of Bones. I had noticed it much earlier on Uteunayr. On the bad side, this can lull the player into a false sense of "This spell isn't something I need to manage" for much longer than it would for Dark Elves. On the other hand, at lower levels, you suffer from more resist failures, more fear breaks, and less tools to handle the situation. Being able to have healing on yourself, while having your efficient mana return spell active is truly invaluable. Of course, at 34, you now have access to Invoke Fear, which really helps curb off the issues of early fear kiting (with just a 3 tick duration, ugh). But as I got into higher levels, it was noticeable, but only in certain times. If you like to play AFK camps, Iksar Regen isn't terribly necessary. By the time the mob respawns, your hp and mana will both be capped. No big deal. But since I was favoring active camps, not needing to stop to med as often was a great boon. I was able to clear more specs in a given round in Oasis. I was able to maintain my mana pool while killing both nobles, Isabella, both bards, the dude by the front gate, and the upstairs noble, while with my DE, I was managing just the middle floor 5. Like it or not, charm breaks and getting punched eventually happens, and having your HP drop slower gives you a good padding buffer against getting wrecked by a charm break pet, which was a great advantage through COM and in Charasis to this day. The greater efficiency allowed me to fly through those last levels so much faster than I was able to on Uteunayr. Now I am 60. Now I don't really go out and level, so the XP penalty doesn't mean fuck all to me. But I like that I can pop Lich and lose only 3 hp, or pop Demi Lich to get stuff back faster. I am not needing to lifetap random crap mobs just to get my health back nearly as much as I used to. When it comes to a raid recovery (pretty much the job of the necromancer at end game), I can lich mana for longer, and pump it over to clerics, enchanters, shamans, etc. while non-iksar have to click off and recast their lich form constantly, slowing their income down. Now if something goes wrong, and I am at low HP, and I FD, I regen at 14 a tick, rather than 5. With my 1.4k hp (it is slightly higher, but rounding for math), I never spend more than 10 minutes to get to max HP if I am waiting for HP to come back (1400hp/14hp a tick = 100 ticks x 6 sec per tick = 600 seconds/60 seconds per minute = 10 minutes) whereas on Uteu I'd have to stay FD for up to 28 minutes (1400hp/5hp a tick = 280 ticks x 6 sec per tick = 1680 seconds / 60 seconds in a minute = 28 minutes). But that's assuming FDing at 0hp and going to 1.4k, which is going to change from player to player based on their style. Of course, other than these type of situations, regeneration can be devalued, such as through owning regeneration gear (+17 total in Velious), or having a VP staff which gives you health for no mana, getting past the lifetap mana inefficiency. It is sad to say, but due to just how many variables go into a leveling experience, the real test is just trying it for yourself. I'd like to see the numbers break down, and what assumptions go into the model. But ultimately, just like in WoW, social science, and basically everything that uses statistics to represent the world, simulations are going to be problematic when it comes to actual execution because of the vast number of different variables that become assumed on a simulation. What gear the player has, what type of raiding they will be doing, how active they will be to earn those items, what type of play style the player wants to pursue, and so on. These are tricky things to model, so I highly recommend anyone who doubts how much of a day and night difference non-Iksar vs Iksar is to try it. Play both to 60. Start with an Iksar, or do as I did and start with a Non-Iksar. Plus, cool looking robes, and the FD animation knocks the other humanoid FD animation out of the water. Seriously, #style. Now specifically to your questions... Quote:
2- It depends on your level of Velious gear. When it comes to Kunark gear, it depends on how much you weigh HP vs Mana in terms of relative benefit. There are some, like my friend Anichek, who go for a full Int build. He goes for "I want to be the biggest battery so I can dump the most mana." approach. Cool. Then there is an older friend I don't see around much anymore named Clever, who was the first 60 Iksar (or maybe just Iksar Necro?) on the server, and he goes full HP. Last I heard, he was sitting around 1.8k HP unbuffed. To each of these people, HP and Mana are worth different amounts of value. The value changes based on what your play style is. If you're going to be a heavy AFK camper, or a pure raid battery, Anichek has it right. Get the most mana, because you're going to cap your mana while medding between pulls. If you're going to be super active, chain killing mobs, and being more of a ninja necro (charming, mezzing, healing, etc) rather than a battery, then Clever has it right, because you wont get much time to be sitting to cap your mana again, so how much max mana you have doesn't mean shit. Also keep in mind that with Regen, health starts to matter less, and you don't need as much of a buffer, since you wont be losing it nearly as quickly. I strike a middle ground myself. I sit at around 1.45k HP, and about 3.1k Mana. You can see my magelo page here. I am just over 200 int (as I use a logic that 1HP = 1Mana when it comes to gearing decisions). I use this because I do a bit of both of the above styles. By Velious, as I say above, the gear will be so over-saturated, it wont matter. The Erudite quest items are already overly laden with Int and Mana, whereas Sky shoulders give you near the same overall stat allocation (assuming 1hp = 1 mana, as I value it), but with some mana being health instead. By Velious, you'll be finding better stuff that the Erudite gear anyway. As far as I see, the idea of "Erudites hit 255 faster so can put more slots to hp!" doesn't really hold up terribly well given Velious gear. Additionally, I wouldn't really be rushing for 255 cap before going for HP, I just go for whatever gives me the most HP and Mana combined, and then carry around spare gear that I can use to sway the balance based on what I am doing. Remember, int is just a means to mana. Luckily, due to regen, I don't really need much of a buffer, since I don't lose much HP at all. When I play Uteu, I need to gear far more heavily toward HP anyway, just so I have enough that I am not too low by the time a ToN can heal me without hitting 100%. The number of times the vulnerable moment happens are few and far between (the moment when you are at low HP about to lifetap to heal to just under 100%) for an Iksar. With Uteu, I'd rather raise the ceiling of HP higher so my opportune moment to lifetap is at 60-70%, rather than 30-50%. But to be honest, with Sesser, I don't really have any slots where I'd want to swap out items. Belt for a BCG would be great... but I don't feel I really use any items just for the intelligence to be honest, and that wouldn't change my gearing direction at the moment. Ultimately, the idea of changing out int items for HP items is great... if you have HP items to shift to that even feel worth it in the first place. There's not too many slots with huge HP items to switch to, really. I suppose I could go for Rokyl Shield over Hand of the Reaper, but then I'd lose MR. Enshrouded Veil over Eyepatch, but come on, style and DMFless See Invis [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. The gloves wouldn't leave my hands for any other item. I suppose I could drop my earring for a second black sapphire and get 15 more hp. But really, there are not many huge HP items to go to. Alendrine robe would be solid increase across the board. So any advantage an Erudite has of hitting the cap and then being able to use more HP items is kind of meaningless, especially come Velious. There's not really any other huge HP items I'd like. It's not like there is a wrist with 50 HP just waiting to be used, and if only I was an Erudite, or some other high int race, I would be able to get rid of my Griffon-Hide Wrist Guard and use it. I'd still be using the items I am using now, most likely. And by the time there are huge HP increasing items, Int, Mana, and Stamina will all come with it, so it wont be a choice anymore. 3- Dark Elves, and all Non-Iksar get a few things (or maybe just a couple) an Iksar does not which are actually really good. Short of Epic, Zlandie Heart, Real Epic, and other super rare items, the best main hand you can get is a Tome of Miragul. But it is not an Iksar item. The best overall stat allocation boots are GEBS, which an Iksar cannot use. Again, this is based on the 1hp = 1mana valuing that I use. However, note, there are some decent alternatives. GEBS is 9 int, which, lets just assume that because of items like Eyepatch, VS gaunts, Hand of the Reaper, Blighted Robe, and a vast number of other items that are simply oozing intelligence, that you're over 200 int. That's 9 x 6 = 54 mana. Weigh this against Shadowbound Boots, which is +15 hp and +15 mana. That's 54 vs 30, the GEBS still wins. The only time Shadowbound would win is when you're already at 250 int (as 5 int = 30 mana which breaks even, and the other 4 is lost). By the same token, Tome of Miragul is +50 HP +50 Mana +6 Int -5 Sta. So 50 + 50 + 6(6 or 12) - 5 (2). Or, 126-162 total value, versus my favorite MH prior to another item, the Gnoll Hide Tome with 10 int, 15 hp which is 10 (6 or 12) + 15 for a total value of 75-135. It is clearly significantly better in the stats department. This is even more true at capped int. However note that come Velious, you'd only want a Zlandicar's Heart as a MH, which any necro can use, and is 1 Sta, 20 int, or 122-240 stat, PLUS 5 regen. So it is really cumbersome to get into numbers, because you need to make a fuck ton of assumptions about what your gearing situation will be. Ultimately, regeneration is always valuable so long as you're not 100% hp, and you wont be at 100% hp until you're gaining HP with demi lich. While that may be an achievable dream in the short run on the server, whenever lich HP loss is fixed and increased to what it should be, it will no longer be achievable. The one really great strength an erudite has is 5 more MR. However, with the recent MR cap at 255, and the nature of the role of the necromancer, this is a bit devalued. There is plenty of MR gear that is also naturally good for us to use (EoE is really great to wear, Hand of the Reaper), and come Velious these MR gear is also HP gear is also Mana gear. But more so, as a necromancer, you are unlikely to be able to land many spells on bosses on this server anyway (even though patch notes refer to lifetaps as "nearly unresistable with exception to encounters that are immune to magic or out of the acceptable level range.", in which the wording is a bit wishy washy and non-specific). Usually you're going to be there for raid recovery, twitching, throwing pets, or patch healing. And in most of those cases, you wont be up in the shit getting magic spells casted at you in the first place. Now when you're indoors, fighting against a mob you don't want to fear kite, and he is a caster, then this MR will definitely be a boon, assuming you don't have the gear to cap your resists. Honestly, and this is just me, the best race past an Iksar is a Gnome. You can't really quantify the value of being able to look through a wall. It is so damn good. Plus, you worship Bertoxxulous, and he's an awesome god. Ultimately, play what will give you the best classic experience. That's why we are all here anyway. If you get your rocks off on having your classic Dark Elf mullet, and love knowing your guild hall has the best damn music in this game, then go for it. Really, go for it. Me? I had no attachment to my race. I took Dark Elf because I remember enjoying the Neriak area. And in retrospect, I probably would do it again, because I recognize that I am a player that has the time and resilience to level up two separate necromancers. But although I would again start with a DE first, I would also reroll Iksar. The main way I made cash on this server when I started was hunting down Reapers of the Dead, a clickie item with 1 charge of CH on it. Sold those things for 1.25k in EC, bought my jboots, bought everything I needed. That's how I got my start, and it gave me the income to be able to switch to Iksar without needing to worry about making money. However, I think my guide has pointed out a number of cash farming locations so that new necromancers don't have as much of a problem earning money... That has been something I've been focusing on expanding in my guide. But I don't have any real attachment to Dark Elf. Erudites probably have my favorite lore for necromancers (I love the Heretics), but ultimately, regeneration is so fucking tits. Try it out. Seriously, just try it. If you have friends who are necromancers, see if you can play a non-iksar for a bit, and an iksar for a few hours. Just go fuck around in HS north for a while. You'll feel it. But that doesn't matter if you are feeling crappy about thinking you *need* to go Iksar. This is EverQuest. Further, the chances that you as a Necromancer are going to be the deciding factor between a raid surviving or dying is damn near 0%. Iksar regen wont change that. Only rerolling your class will. As much as it sucks to say, we are just not that important a class. You can still get the job done as a non-Iksar. If you love your classic race, play it. If you like the look of another race, play it. It's fucking Project 1999... This isn't srs business. Your choice of Iksar or Non-Iksar isn't going to ruin anyone's day but your own, and that's only if you make a choice that you are going to be unhappy with. Play what you find to be the most fun. For me? That's an Iksar. I love the regeneration, I love the glorious FD animation, I love the robe model, I love that I don't have to abandon my camp when I run out of food or water. I love that when I have my Hand of the Reaper on and I cast gate, when my screen freeze frames to load the next zone my iksar has his hands thrown up and to the side in the Thriller pose. These are things that I love about Iksar. You may not weigh them with as much value as I do. If you don't, play another race. If there was anything I was unclear about and you want me to try to explain more thoroughly, or anything else specific you wanted to ask me specifically about anything I wrote here, PM me. I don't usually check the forums anymore, as my life has been fairly busy, and Elite: Dangerous is far too fucking fun. But PMs go to my email, which I will see and be able to respond to. But really, play the race you'll love the most. Nothing will match that.
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Last edited by Uteunayr; 02-15-2015 at 09:06 PM..
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#15
02-15-2015, 09:23 PM
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Heh, they weren't joking around when they said you were writing a treatise!
Thank you for taking the time to write all of that. It was definitely very informative, and it was nice to hear from someone who really had experienced both Iksar and non-Iksar Necros. Also I really appreciated the gear info; as I said I'm pretty ignorant on that topic, so your explanation was very helpful. To the specific points: Quote:
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I'm still not 100% convinced that (again, in a purely min/max sense) Iksar is the clear best race for every Necromancer no matter what. Largely because of that post I keep referencing ... Quote:
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Loramin Frostseer, Oracle of the Tribunal <Anonymous> and Fan of the "Where To Go For XP/For Treasure?" Guides Anyone can improve the wiki! If you are new to the Blue server, you can improve the wiki to earn a "welcome package" of up to 2k+ platinum! Message me for details. | |||||||||
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#17
02-15-2015, 09:52 PM
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For "AFK" camping, Iksar are better too. Can put on a lower lich and come back having gained health and mana while FD.
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#18
02-15-2015, 09:53 PM
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Personally I think it's one of the great things about this game: you can be a super min/maxer high-end raid poop-socker, or you can be Greengrocer and just do tradeskills and tunnel questing. Or you can do anything in-between: there's no wrong way to play.
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Loramin Frostseer, Oracle of the Tribunal <Anonymous> and Fan of the "Where To Go For XP/For Treasure?" Guides Anyone can improve the wiki! If you are new to the Blue server, you can improve the wiki to earn a "welcome package" of up to 2k+ platinum! Message me for details. | |||
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#20
02-15-2015, 10:03 PM
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Iksar carry salmonella, smell bad, are EVIL, talk with an annoying lisp, and pass out when the temperature goes under 40 degrees. Not worth the regen.
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I apologize for the prior sig gif. Here are some kittens.
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