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  #21  
Old 01-29-2022, 08:13 PM
unsunghero unsunghero is offline
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Originally Posted by robayon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
That's pretty fucked up, but I find it a bit confusing - maybe I just misunderstood

Like he had a regular gf who was fairly attractive, but then was texting this girl, and sent her flowers & card - but she wanted to keep it just co-worker/friend? Or was he implying that his co-worker was his gf and then he threatened suicide when she checked him?
No, sorry, by partner I meant work partner, as in a two person work team. Only ever a co-worker, Iím assuming they probably never hung out outside of work but if so probably at a group thing as friends. So he got attracted to his co-worker, then showed it with the romantic card and flowers. She shot him down, politely, and he threatened to kill himself in response

It is actually a fairly common thing I see on my job from clients from all walks of life, but almost always from people in relationships. The right way to express the hurt or the sadness is to say something like ďI have a hard time seeing life without youĒ, or something of that nature. When itís more direct ďyou left me, so Iím going to kill myselfĒ, itís a control or manipulation tactic more often than itís a cry for help. But discounting it as such is dangerous, some people will follow through and do it, Iíve seen it happen at work. So the correct response can often be to do what she did, to get the person formal treatment possibly even against their will

This will either do one of 2 things: if their threat was genuine it will literally save their life, or at the very least delay their death a while longer. If the threat was an attempt to manipulate, it will set a boundary of ďIím not going to continue to tolerate you jerking me around emotionally but putting your life in my handsĒ

However, the most emotional time after getting a rejection starts from the moment itís read, and tends to go down in time. Which is why itís better in my opinion to engage the personís supports such as contacting their friends or family to check on them, and give them time to process and see how they feel a bit later with more mental clarityÖbefore hospitalizing them against their will

Same works for kids, because behavioral kids will often try to leverage suicide or self-harm when they get a consequence. Take it seriously, give them time, and then put a boundary down that they wonít like such as hospitalization and possibly therapy after to learn to express themselves differently
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  #22  
Old 01-30-2022, 12:47 AM
robayon robayon is offline
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No, sorry, by partner I meant work partner, as in a two person work team. Only ever a co-worker, Iím assuming they probably never hung out outside of work but if so probably at a group thing as friends. So he got attracted to his co-worker, then showed it with the romantic card and flowers. She shot him down, politely, and he threatened to kill himself in response

It is actually a fairly common thing I see on my job from clients from all walks of life, but almost always from people in relationships. The right way to express the hurt or the sadness is to say something like ďI have a hard time seeing life without youĒ, or something of that nature. When itís more direct ďyou left me, so Iím going to kill myselfĒ, itís a control or manipulation tactic more often than itís a cry for help. But discounting it as such is dangerous, some people will follow through and do it, Iíve seen it happen at work. So the correct response can often be to do what she did, to get the person formal treatment possibly even against their will

This will either do one of 2 things: if their threat was genuine it will literally save their life, or at the very least delay their death a while longer. If the threat was an attempt to manipulate, it will set a boundary of ďIím not going to continue to tolerate you jerking me around emotionally but putting your life in my handsĒ

However, the most emotional time after getting a rejection starts from the moment itís read, and tends to go down in time. Which is why itís better in my opinion to engage the personís supports such as contacting their friends or family to check on them, and give them time to process and see how they feel a bit later with more mental clarityÖbefore hospitalizing them against their will

Same works for kids, because behavioral kids will often try to leverage suicide or self-harm when they get a consequence. Take it seriously, give them time, and then put a boundary down that they wonít like such as hospitalization and possibly therapy after to learn to express themselves differently
Is your job directly relating to this subject? I ask because it's pertinent with a friend of mine who I have known for nearly 30 years now. He is in a relationship, if that is pertinent - since you said your clients often are.

Most of the time, if we talk, and he's been drinking (which he does often), he almost always turns the subject to suicide or something that represents the end, doom, gloom, etc. He claims he is beyond help, and that he's given up on psychiatrists, or medicine, or therapists, or whatever - to him, they are all morons, and he's beyond their help. He is constantly worried that his father will die (his dad's like 85 and in poor health) and he suddenly becomes "patriarch" of his family, his brothers & sisters are all younger and generally do not have their shit together, heroin addiction and various problems.

He and I were having some drinks, as we can do, and he asked me kind of flat-out if him mentioning suicide frequently stressed me out. I told him something like "Yes, it does, because I do not want you to do it and I care about you, but I do not know what to tell you that I have not said a whole bunch of times before"

And since then, this is about... four weeks ago, he's been largely silent. He'll talk to me about a video game, or a tv show, but it's always light stuff - he doesn't talk about 'real' stuff.

Did I make a mistake in telling the truth? It does stress me out, I don't know what to tell him. I have tried a lot of things over the years, this isn't exactly new. I have told him I do not know how to make him want to help himself, I can only talk about what helped me or if I don't know to try helping other people. But still the constant low-key threatening of suicide.

I fear one day he's gonna do it, he's been going on about it for like 20 years now, but it's been worse than ever for like the last five or so
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  #23  
Old 01-30-2022, 01:40 AM
unsunghero unsunghero is offline
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Originally Posted by robayon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Is your job directly relating to this subject? I ask because it's pertinent with a friend of mine who I have known for nearly 30 years now. He is in a relationship, if that is pertinent - since you said your clients often are.

Most of the time, if we talk, and he's been drinking (which he does often), he almost always turns the subject to suicide or something that represents the end, doom, gloom, etc. He claims he is beyond help, and that he's given up on psychiatrists, or medicine, or therapists, or whatever - to him, they are all morons, and he's beyond their help. He is constantly worried that his father will die (his dad's like 85 and in poor health) and he suddenly becomes "patriarch" of his family, his brothers & sisters are all younger and generally do not have their shit together, heroin addiction and various problems.

He and I were having some drinks, as we can do, and he asked me kind of flat-out if him mentioning suicide frequently stressed me out. I told him something like "Yes, it does, because I do not want you to do it and I care about you, but I do not know what to tell you that I have not said a whole bunch of times before"

And since then, this is about... four weeks ago, he's been largely silent. He'll talk to me about a video game, or a tv show, but it's always light stuff - he doesn't talk about 'real' stuff.

Did I make a mistake in telling the truth? It does stress me out, I don't know what to tell him. I have tried a lot of things over the years, this isn't exactly new. I have told him I do not know how to make him want to help himself, I can only talk about what helped me or if I don't know to try helping other people. But still the constant low-key threatening of suicide.

I fear one day he's gonna do it, he's been going on about it for like 20 years now, but it's been worse than ever for like the last five or so
Yea dealt with this stuff for the past 14 years in my job

Suicidal thoughts and behaviors tend to follow a progression. I say tends because this doesnít mean for everyone. A person is overwhelmed by an amount of situational stress or negative emotions beyond their current mechanisms to cope. If they canít either lower the stress or negative emotion intensity+frequency, and/or increase their ability to cope, then their brain will start looking for another way out

Usually this starts with what we refer to as hopeless thoughts such as nothing can help me, and a deathwish, such as I wish I could fall asleep and not wake up or I wish something would happen to me like a car accident. If the person continues to decompensate mentally, this can progress to coming up with plans on how to kill self. This can progress to end of life preparations, such as giving away belongings, trying to make arrangements for pets/family, and writing goodbye notes/texts/emails. It sounds like your friend is towards the beginning side of that progression, not the end

However, this being a progression is not true for everyone, and alcohol is a giant monkey wrench in the equation. Not only being a depressant will it make the person feel worse in the long run, heavy use of it can increase impulsivity to the point of making someone skip steps above and impulsively attempt, especially if lethal means are handy. Seeing or thinking about previous plans using lethal means such as seeing a gun or knife or meds when heavily intoxicated can be a trigger to attempt

When we are assessing risk as clinicians we are looking at risk factors versus offsets. Suicidal thoughts are a risk factor, a history of previous attempts is, access to means and the lethality of those means is another, alcohol is another. The last possible risk factor (if it is bad) is their basic functioning, such as how much sleep they are getting and any radical changes to their appetite. Offsets to risk would be motivations to not kill self - can the person think of any (without suggesting these to them), and how involved their support system is. Then we consider their level of future orientation. Future orientation is how much they appear to be thinking about the future, both positively and negatively. A person who says they have no goals and used to care about not being able to pay rent, but lately doesnít care anymore despite nothing changing for their situation has very limited future orientation. That is a big indicator of risk

So based on those risk factors vs the offsets we create a plan. The higher the risk the more than plan leans towards hospitalization. If the risk is less the plan leads more to getting supports involved, and offering assistance with outpatient formal treatment such as counseling, meds, or support groups

None of this is your job and you will always be seen as a friend first and only, not a counselor. Because you canít be his counselor you should encourage him to get formal treatment, listen to his barriers and try to reason through breaking them down with him. I only told you about our process in case he continues to be completely resistant to formal treatment. I would encourage sobriety for him, and stop drinking with him, say that you think it is hurting him in the long run and that you donít want to encourage that anymore. If he has lethal means handy, try as politely and compassionately as you can to temporarily hang onto those. He can always get more but having to go out and buy something gives him time to possibly change his mind, itís all a stalling game

Let him know you are there for him to talk to. If he brings up suicide, you can try to learn a bit more about those factors I mentioned, trying to fit them into the flow of a conversation. Then reach out to the national suicide hotline and run them by them. They can give you more ideas and let you know about how you could get him treatment against his will. A form of this exists for threats of suicide+high risk in all 50 states
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  #24  
Old 01-30-2022, 02:22 AM
Trexller Trexller is offline
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Originally Posted by robayon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Is your job directly relating to this subject? I ask because it's pertinent with a friend of mine who I have known for nearly 30 years now. He is in a relationship, if that is pertinent - since you said your clients often are.

Most of the time, if we talk, and he's been drinking (which he does often), he almost always turns the subject to suicide or something that represents the end, doom, gloom, etc. He claims he is beyond help, and that he's given up on psychiatrists, or medicine, or therapists, or whatever - to him, they are all morons, and he's beyond their help. He is constantly worried that his father will die (his dad's like 85 and in poor health) and he suddenly becomes "patriarch" of his family, his brothers & sisters are all younger and generally do not have their shit together, heroin addiction and various problems.

He and I were having some drinks, as we can do, and he asked me kind of flat-out if him mentioning suicide frequently stressed me out. I told him something like "Yes, it does, because I do not want you to do it and I care about you, but I do not know what to tell you that I have not said a whole bunch of times before"

And since then, this is about... four weeks ago, he's been largely silent. He'll talk to me about a video game, or a tv show, but it's always light stuff - he doesn't talk about 'real' stuff.

Did I make a mistake in telling the truth? It does stress me out, I don't know what to tell him. I have tried a lot of things over the years, this isn't exactly new. I have told him I do not know how to make him want to help himself, I can only talk about what helped me or if I don't know to try helping other people. But still the constant low-key threatening of suicide.

I fear one day he's gonna do it, he's been going on about it for like 20 years now, but it's been worse than ever for like the last five or so
I've been on the mental health merry-go-round, and i can sympathize with him. It felt like every therapist was only trained to handle the people who can't get over their ex, or can't handle their job. None of them were equipped to deal with the topics that I brought up.
Every psychiatrist just felt like a pill pusher, I'd wait in the waiting room for 30 minutes, for a 5 minute visit with the psychiatrist (mental healthcare in my area suuucks) During that 5 minutes I'd be like, "well im not really sure how these meds are helping, but on the other hand, i haven't been arrested lately. So the shrink just increases dosages and sends me on my way.

The whole thing is a crap shoot, the psychiatrist doesn't care, the psychologist cares but isn't trained to deal with you, the community college degree therapist just stares blankly then asks if you're eating and sleeping habits are regular.

The best therapy i ever received was just hanging out with other whack-jobs like me and sharing the fucked up ways that we experience the world. Years later I finally, albeit gradually realize that there aren't many things that matter, and your mental health is a direct product of the environment around you, and what you subject yourself to.

With regard to the suicide/doom/gloom stuff. I would hate to be wrong about it, but in my opinion (resident social workers can pipe in, lookin at you, Unsunghero), people that talk about suicide for years, aren't gonna do it. Deep down, it isnt what they really want. They just exist in this life that seems so bleak, so inescapable, so lacking in better options, that they ultimately feel that they have no desire to live it, and rightly so. They don't want to die per se, they just don't want to live. Awhile back, I found myself in this group. IMO mental health work should begin immediately after anyone signs their enlistment papers.

It seems to me that folks who are really gonna kill themselves, just do it, without much if any warning. Of course, again welcoming any educated opinions (unsunghero, you're the only forum rat around that I know works in the field). One day a guy i knew from the service was texting me about meeting up later in the week for range time or fishing (he owned a nice boat) so im like HELL YEAH. The next day a mutual friend calls me and informs me that he shot himself. No warning, none of us got the impression that this guy needed some help.

Robayon, with regard to your buddy feeling the pressure of assuming patriarchal duties, have you framed such a responsibility as an honor? That your buddy will be able to carry the torch that his father carried for their family? Like, its not a fun job, its a necessary job, done for no other reason than the love of ones family? *shrug* its always easier to give advice from the outside in, may make no difference on the ground.

Anyway like i said i sympathize with your friend, I know well the feeling of "life is pointless" and "i dont wanna die but i dont wanna live either"

my ultimate resolution was to live, find a way to support myself, and have fun at any cost, ANY COST. If i have to cancel a date because I just feel like I would rather game all night, I have done that. You can't serve anyone else if you are not serving yourself.

Thats why the airplane oxygen masks say put yours on first, then help others.
Last edited by Trexller; 01-30-2022 at 02:30 AM..
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  #25  
Old 01-30-2022, 02:37 AM
unsunghero unsunghero is offline
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^
Correct in that a person that has their entire psyche made up to kill themselves is just going to do it, not talk about it. And that’s a good number of completions, but not nearly all

We have two possible things working for us, one is our motivations to not, such as the consideration of how killing ourselves will affect those that care about us. The fallacy here is to believe that just because a person had this motivation, that it can’t also be gone eventually. A seriously depressed person (even extremely intelligent) can come to believe that everyone would be better off without them. Depression warps our reasoning

The last thing we have going for us is a basic survival instinct that is ingrained in us as animals. This can work for us all the way up to the final moment, such as causing us to jerk the gun upwards at the last second (which like everything else I have seen before, talked to a lady who blew the top of her skull off ONLY because of this instinct and had to wear a wig). Many people who attempt and survive, such as people who have fallen off the Golden Gate Bridge and broke a lot of shit but not died, said immediately as they were attempting they regretted it


Because of these two powerful factors, a lot of people put out feelers prior to doing the deed. Those feelers are the psyche’s tiny attempts to keep living. These are the people we can save

The part that is not correct is thinking that someone who talks about it for x years is not going to do it. The length of suicidal ideation can indeed be an offset to risk, because it suggests that there are some greater motivations to not act. But a person can have life circumstances take a nosedive off a cliff, and their mental functioning take a nosedive with it, and decompensate very quickly to the point of a lethal attempt regardless of how long they used to have just the thoughts. It’s all case by case basis

Other than that tiny discrepancy, good points IMO. Sorry ya didn’t get a lot out of formal treatment but I always like seeing someone help themselves
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  #26  
Old 01-30-2022, 08:29 AM
starkind starkind is offline
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so i have this silly sheet with lil butterflies and hearts all over it in pink and pastel

one of my cats completely loves/bergs out and tries to hunt/eat all the butterflies then she sits on top of it like a queen --- u know the lil pinched satisified eyes gently closed and surveying "I won THIS IS MINE" cat face.
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Old 01-30-2022, 08:38 AM
starkind starkind is offline
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as far as rejection --- ya if someone can't handle rejection that is a red flag they need immediate professional help i don't care about your rights at that point they are a danger to themselves and others if they are over the age of 10 they should handle it

as for suicide

ya i don't talk about it when i feel that way and i don't talk about it to anyone who'm i care to have a good relationship with anymore... anyway i'm on the upswing of 'suicidality' and i don't feel like doing it even if i have the impulse to do it my reaction is like 'oh fuck not this again why am i doing this to myself this is pointless and fruitless'

so ya i would worry about your friend, and he also probably values your relationship, and he probably also needs someone to vent to and his suicidal ideation should be taken seriously

will admitting him help? IDK --- i had a psycho'logist (hehehe i don't think they are evulll neccissarily)' involuntarily admit me once when i didn't write a suicide letter and she berged out that i was leaving a biographical suicide note (it wasn't really, def not at that stage and not really anything to do with shit i really cared about more than my life) and that kind of put me into a spiral - i didn't immediately commit suicide - and did i need help ya... did i need to talk shit out? ya --- did coming out of there adversly effect me in some ways ya -- and other ways no --- that wasn't the admittal that really fucked me up --- thats when i checked myself in and tried to kill myself

i just wanted to check out at that point - i was tired of being the patriarch lawl i feel that i get where he's coming from especially when his family is so fucked up

the dude needs grief counselling and acceptance because he cannot save his loved ones there's no way the world is against him he is in denial thinking its all on him i get it tho i believe he is genuinely feeling responsible and shameful he can't do anything about it all.

what he really needs is a support network of ppl he can reach out to when he wants to do it so u can be there and he won't really be able to go thru with it until he can go get help and he needs to have faith and trust in the hospitals/psyche wards (thats hard) because all of those things are shit, absolute shit right now, maybe better than hurting urself or someone else - safety plans are stupid and also kinda work/help its a good consideration

that's a story for another time...

that he's probably been through that and doesn't want to go thru that again is a dangerous component increasing his likelyhood of success. if he tries to go thru with it again
Last edited by starkind; 01-30-2022 at 08:59 AM..
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  #28  
Old 01-30-2022, 10:25 AM
robayon robayon is offline
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Thanks fellas! I'll press on the professional help of some kind and won't drink with him. I honestly don't know if he has guns or other weapons in the house, but I would wager he does - but since his sister is a heroin addict who will steal anything not bolted down I bet his dad's long since locked them in a safe or something. (She broke into my car once when I was there for a few hours and stole all of the change out of my little tray thing, for example)

I'm pretty sure he's uninsured and he's definitely unemployed, dunno how he'll afford the doctor (if he goes)... maybe he can enroll in medicaid or something, I don't know how that works when you have cash resources but no income. His old man gave him like 50k to play with in the stock market so I suspect he's got cash.

I don't totally disagree that it's a bit frustrating sometimes to seek mental health treatment. I had some issues myself back from like 2010 - 2013, saw a bunch of shrinks, all kinds of off-label medication, ended up with a benzo problem, then rehab, and once I sobered up off of it I never went back for further treatment. Every time I went to a psychiatrist, specifically, and I tried a lot of them, it was just like "list your problems, here's a prescription" - there was rarely any real dialogue. Maybe I just didn't find the right one, or he hasn't.

As for framing his forthcoming patriarchal duties as an 'honor', I have honestly never tried that. I suspect he'll scoff at it, but I'll give it a whirl. He's very misanthropic, especially when it comes to his family, but he's expressed envy at me for being the reverse the majority of the time so I don't think it's a totally lost cause.
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  #29  
Old 01-30-2022, 11:18 AM
robayon robayon is offline
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It's time to go to church, love you guys!!!

https://christiansocialism.com/chris...ism-statement/
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  #30  
Old 01-30-2022, 12:24 PM
Reiwa Reiwa is offline
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It's time to go to church, love you guys!!!

https://christiansocialism.com/chris...ism-statement/
liberation theology is big among south american clergy.

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