Game Mechanics: Persistent instaclick item use on Blue

[Solist]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Flux staff needs a cast time. Add it to your list.

I addressed that. By changing lowerelement to 0 or 1 hate, or removing ability to cast it in raid zones.

Nerfing all non raiding people for the behaviour of raiding people was the effect of the first nerf. Those mistakes are from short sighted approach which I’d rather not be a part of. Flux staff is an integral part of wizard XP and grouping, utility etc.

It’s use as a clutch 100hate/second average spammable kiting or tagging tool is the exact type of item the original nerf sought to be rid of.

[Solist]

Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It looks to me like root nets were nerfed for their part as an aggro tool, intentionally leaving us with only low aggro tagging clickies.

All I can do is politely disagree, nets were a primary pulling, splitting, back tagging, cleanup, goaltending tool; as much as they were a tank swap or extra aggro quick fix tool.

If their intention was to leave only low aggro clickies then the scepter is a huge issue. Flux staff too, or ostensibly all the other class specific clicks from hate wands/phinny etc.

Either do it all right, or undo the nerfs and make some exception cases like Donals BP spell effect on reapers/soulfires so the heals bounce.

Add similar effects to all these instaclicks. Or in built recast delays. Then let them be used like their original design allowed without spamming.

A blade stopper with a 30second recast delay built in is not game breaking like me running around VP with a half dozen clicks of rune to spread across trains. A 5 sec recast delay on a flux staff is a great compromise. 30sec on strings, etc etc.

There is a myriad of solutions possible. The least dev effort is my original, the best for the players and spirit of the game I can also take the time to write but we can’t get velious armour working let alone a bunch of unique item changes for a subset of autists.

[realsubtle]

That sounds like a lot of work. We should let the P99 devs take it easy for once.

[Croco]

Originally Posted by realsubtle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That sounds like a lot of work. We should let the P99 devs take it easy for once.

Here here! There's probably lots of vendors that aren't selling grapes like they should be. #1 priority!

[Loke]

This is a perfect example of why aiming for classic mechanics is better than classic experience. Emergent game play is more interesting and engaging than engineered game play. So after 20+ years of playing EQ, players figured out ways to maximize the efficacy of items in the game... so what? One way or another raiders are going to find a way to trivialize content with enough time. We've seen nerfed clickes, rooted dragons, removal of push interrupt, and countless other tweaks... and while the strategies have changed, the content remains trivial.

People are never going to agree on what constitutes a "classic experience", but aiming for classic mechanics like the server seemed to do in the first few years is much less controversial. Remember when "not classic" actually meant something, and any changes needed to be supported by evidence?

More non-classic changes isn't the solution.

[Solist]

Originally Posted by Loke [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is a perfect example of why aiming for classic mechanics is better than classic experience. Emergent game play is more interesting and engaging than engineered game play. So after 20+ years of playing EQ, players figured out ways to maximize the efficacy of items in the game... so what? One way or another raiders are going to find a way to trivialize content with enough time. We've seen nerfed clickes, rooted dragons, removal of push interrupt, and countless other tweaks... and while the strategies have changed, the content remains trivial.

People are never going to agree on what constitutes a "classic experience", but aiming for classic mechanics like the server seemed to do in the first few years is much less controversial. Remember when "not classic" actually meant something, and any changes needed to be supported by evidence?

More non-classic changes isn't the solution.

I am 100% in agreement with you. 100%, I want pure unfiltered classic eq and to use every modern emergent tactic and obscure item to do the most interesting possible fights.

Roll back the item changes, change the lifetap MR modifiers, unlimit AE targets, wind down the back-stun-on-hit % a few notches, add some push to interrupt back, stop the unclassic auto gate at 20%, make full speed flee at 20% a thing scaling with hp to a crawl away like classic, make only 4 NPC's ever at once attack you like classic so the 20 others just stand there etc. We play in this weird sandbox of notclassic everquest, but also notcustom. It's an odd position to be in if you were asked to describe P99.

Without rolling all that stuff back, changing it to classic proper everquest (the reason I posit many of us still play is the 'hope' P99 becomes classic one day) the best we can strive for is to have the original intent of the patches actually have the intended result.

A patch that ruins a bunch of solo/duo/group content and is ineffective at changing raiding which was the target, that makes the patch in its current form a bug; and a useles one, if not followed through

More non-classic changes isn't the solution.

So it isn't more non-classic changes I'm seeking, I'm seeking to finish the one unclassic change they intended to do; or abolish it and go back.

[azxten]

Here is an idea...

Raid mobs can be flagged as such and the code can be changed so that clicked itemeffects respond differently for raid mobs. You can even do things like this...

On reaper click if RaidMob is spawned block cast and message, "A powerful force overwhelms your item's magical properties."

All items can be left alone and purely altered in the context of a raid event. Then that functionality can be changed to whatever it should be in that context. Any clicky rune can be blocked, made longer to cast, whatever needs to happen.

You can just standardize based on effect as well. A net, mallet, flux or whatever else can all be standardized to do X aggro if you're in a raid zone with a raid mob spawned. That function could even dynamically account for the classic item parameters.

Let's say a "balanced" level of aggro is 10 per second. Now you know you just need to do item aggro = ideal aggro per second * item cast time. A 1 second cast item does 10 aggro and a 5 second cast item does 50 aggro. An instant click item does 1 aggro assuming you can click it 10 times in a second from a game mechanic perspective.

Runes too powerful for aggro or shielding? Same concept. Use the cast time to adjust aggro and level of rune provided in the context of being in a zone with a raid mob spawned.

Lifetap clicks? Raid mobs are immune and reverse the spell causing them to reflect the spell and lifetap you instead.

Just saying that is how I'd do it. The goal seems to be to balance raiding not nerf items and have to keep track of how items have been changed from classic. They work as classic unless you're in a raid zone and a powerful raid mob is spawned and then they work according to a formula based on the effect that standardizes all items. How does a CH clicky work if a raid mob is up in your zone? Lifetap click? Aggro click? Shield click? They all work the same as any other clicky with that effect and as designed to not trivialize the content.

Personally I like leaving things to operate as classic until they are abused and then nerfing them because that IS classic. I agree the half classic half not classic is annoying. Item recharging for example should be nerfed because Verant would have nerfed it if it was being abused in a widespread manner like on P99. Classic mechanics should be left in until the meta changes to abuse them or use them excessively and then they should be nerfed. Ideally this would be done for each server relaunch so Green you can do anything you could on classic and on Blue almost everything is nerfed. It could even be scripted, the second some number of lifetap hoops are clicked on a raid mob the raid mob logic adjusts and that won't work anymore. Same for any other abused mechanic. Raid mob counted X CH item effects on aggroed players? Now it doesn't work anymore in a raid mob zone if the mob is up.

[branamil]

Can we just admit that it's not classic anymore? It's strayed so far from classic that it's kind of a joke to keep pushing that server motto. It's two dudes' custom, private server.

[Croco]

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Verant would have nerfed it if it was being abused in a widespread manner like on P99.

That's not how it works if you are striving for 1 to 1 classic everquest. You don't get to guess what verant would've done or take into account what they did in the luclin or pop eras. You also don't get to decide to nerf things into an unclassic state just because players are smarter and have more information about how things work these days. Emergent gameplay is fun and inevitable.

[Whyt]

Originally Posted by branamil [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Can we just admit that it's not classic anymore? It's strayed so far from classic that it's kind of a joke to keep pushing that server motto. It's two dudes' custom, private server.

this.