Official P99 Retexturing Thread Mk. II

[paulgiamatti]

when your elf sim retexturing project gains enough traction to warrant its first hater
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[Bazia]

No idea what that idiot was rambling about, this is top notch work

Make a Patreon I'd donate

[DudeStop]

Work looks absolutely terrific. Well done!

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Toodles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I do not see the improvement over the previous iteration - they still look far too high in contrast and cell shaded as if they're upscaled then softened(drawn) to hide the imperfections.

What people want(ed), was the original textures to show more clear and sharper, like as was done with some of the world geometry hi res releases.
Then after you do that, you can go make an alternative pack that is more artistic based on your hand drawing and interpretation.

The first appeals to everyone, the second only to some.

I think this is a great mod, but I can see where you are coming from.

Hopefully this will be viewed as constructive criticism, as again I really enjoy and appreciate this work. A lot of the updated art is lacking in highlights and shadows (to give the illusion of depth and texture), and some of the details have been omitted or resized (changing the overall design, where is the script on the green robe?). On the faces these factors have combined to give a much more softened look, instead of the gritty hardened adventurers we are familiar with (the borders of the facial hair as an example are startlingly clean). It does make the eye patches look much better, I'll give you that!

My favourite retexture that I can see so far is the human chain, especially on the legs. I think the original design team got a little lazy on this one because it was so dark they seemed to feel okay skipping detail (either that or the original detail got lost).

I think I might have to open up the editor and cherry pick my favourite pieces to create my own set for the best of both worlds.

[Sorn]

dafhe0001.bmpdafhe0001.jpgdafhe0001b.jpg
Original (64x64) > Cucumber's upscale (256x256) > My retouches

Redoing the hair to be realistically grizzled on certain models takes a while (and honestly it's difficult, because 256 is NOT very big), but I'll take a look when I do final edits to all the faces. (I'm reviewing all screenshots to see where I need to do more work.)

As for the faces being softened, they were originally quite soft from what I can tell. Pixelation is hell on the skin, what can I say...

[paulgiamatti]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hopefully this will be viewed as constructive criticism, as again I really enjoy and appreciate this work. A lot of the updated art is lacking in highlights and shadows (to give the illusion of depth and texture), and some of the details have been omitted or resized (changing the overall design, where is the script on the green robe?).

It's only potentially constructive if you give examples like you did with the green robe, which is an example that's not constructive because that robe texture contains no script - that's just a cross-thatching pattern which was redone by Nysus to be much more fine-grained.

Before and after:
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So I mean, I just flatly disagree when you say "a lot" of the updated art is lacking in highlights or shadows to give the illusion of depth and texture - that's the primary thing that all of them improve upon. As I stated in this thread's first iteration, a lot of them are different in subtle ways which is why we're making two separate packages: one which contains all of the redone-by-hand textures which were painstakingly worked on by Nysus, Xevin, Joyelle, Sorn, Cucumbers, and myself, and one which will include none of the redone character/armor textures opting for 100% upscaled-from-original textures. So the former will be the "maximum quality" package, and will contain the most differences from the originals - which is to say, it will be the package which has superior highlighting and shadowing and detail and nuance, with some very minor departures from the original stock textures as shown above. The latter will be Cucumbers' "maximum classic" package, which will be of lesser overall quality and detail, but will still be a massive improvement over the originals because the upscaling does 90% of the work.

[nectarprime]

Really stoked for this, thank you guys for putting in so much effort.

[paulgiamatti]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

we're making two separate packages: one which contains all of the redone-by-hand textures which were painstakingly worked on by Nysus, Xevin, Joyelle, Sorn, Cucumbers, and myself, and one which will include none of the redone character/armor textures opting for 100% upscaled-from-original textures.

Small correction: Cucu's package is going to use the touched-up faces that Sorn is doing, which are character textures, but they aren't really "redone" to the extent that Nysus/Xevin/Joyelle's stuff is. The main difference is a lot of the Nysus/Xevin/Joyelle stuff is completely redone from scratch, while Sorn is starting with and improving upon the upscaled textures - correcting any weirdness caused by the upscaling process.

Further, if you hardcore classicophiles want to hear something even more upsetting, Cucu's package is also going to contain all of the redone weapon and held item textures, some of which deviate quite noticeably from the originals. We have tossed around the idea of making a third "purely upscaled, nothing touched by humans" package, which would probably be pretty simple to put together.

[Jimjam]

Thanks for replying!

My eyes have always interpreted this pattern as poorly resolved script. Anyone I see wearing this is going to loose about a million awesome point now I will perceive them as wearing a woven wicker loincloth instead. I suppose at least they won't be wearing the EQ EULA on the belly anymore! I'm also sad to see the 'sea gulls' I perceived on the leather belt buckles are now just crosses!

You guys have done a great job achieving clean edge highlights and shadows. That is undisputed, they create unambiguous shapes and add clarity to the armour.

Further criticism, hopefully more constructive. I didn't want to go too deep last time as to not cause offence:

 

However, the textures you showcased are missing some of the extreme/sunburst highlights. Take a look at the human cloth textures[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
You can see there is an extreme highlight missing from the clavicle. This absence makes the collar bone look like it might circle up around the base of the neck like a T-shirt collar, instead of continue sideways along to the shoulders as it does in reality. This highlight creates more than clarity of detail; it creates the illusion of 3d and the illusion of a continuing shape beneath the clothes, even though we can't see it.

The leather on the human also lacks extreme highlights running down the centre of chest and the front of the legs.
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Now this is what I think about when I imagine leather pants!

I love these sunburst style highlights, so am sad to see them absent. Sure maybe it isn't appropriate for a human mucking around in the dungeon of undead frogloks to have armour so brightly lit they might as well be under South Ro's sun at midsummer midday. I understand that decision. However, I personally love the appearance of heroic characters, a shining beacon against the dark and dangerous world of Norrath; The artistic style creates a narrative about the characters to me. Such highlights, away from the edges of textures, also create a depth illusion, I suppose working almost like bumpmapping.

The other creator of depth in the original textures are the shadow some of the details cast on the others. Look at the leather chest. The golden chains and leather straps fix a leather shield to the centre of the armour. The bulky chains and straps cast a large shadow on the leather beneath, giving an impression they don't lay flush to the surface of the leather and block the path of light from above. Look again at the original texture; there are lines that define the edges of detail that are much finer than the shadows of the chain/straps/shield; as such we know the shadows from the chain/straps/shield are intentionally large to convey the idea they are significantly thicker/raised than other details.

I love a lot of the extra work that has been added which the original resolution couldn't support. On the leather wrists, between the studs is a lovely line of highlight that creates the impression of the leather creasing outwards between the studs. Lovely! Lots more details like this, but if I was to offer praise on these points it wouldn't be constructive, just a massive wall of text.

I'm really happy there are different packs for different tastes too, this is a really good move.

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's only potentially constructive if you give examples like you did with the green robe, which is an example that's not constructive because that robe texture contains no script - that's just a cross-thatching pattern which was redone by Nysus to be much more fine-grained.

Before and after:
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So I mean, I just flatly disagree when you say "a lot" of the updated art is lacking in highlights or shadows to give the illusion of depth and texture - that's the primary thing that all of them improve upon. As I stated in this thread's first iteration, a lot of them are different in subtle ways which is why we're making two separate packages: one which contains all of the redone-by-hand textures which were painstakingly worked on by Nysus, Xevin, Joyelle, Sorn, Cucumbers, and myself, and one which will include none of the redone character/armor textures opting for 100% upscaled-from-original textures. So the former will be the "maximum quality" package, and will contain the most differences from the originals - which is to say, it will be the package which has superior highlighting and shadowing and detail and nuance, with some very minor departures from the original stock textures as shown above. The latter will be Cucumbers' "maximum classic" package, which will be of lesser overall quality and detail, but will still be a massive improvement over the originals because the upscaling does 90% of the work.

Sorry if I'm getting too excited by specific elements of shadows and highlights, but one of my other hobbies is hand painted figurines so I am used to looking at these things from a particular perspective, which might not be so relevant in this instance.

Originally Posted by Sorn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Attachment 8176Attachment 8179Attachment 8178
Original (64x64) > Cucumber's upscale (256x256) > My retouches

Redoing the hair to be realistically grizzled on certain models takes a while (and honestly it's difficult, because 256 is NOT very big), but I'll take a look when I do final edits to all the faces. (I'm reviewing all screenshots to see where I need to do more work.)

As for the faces being softened, they were originally quite soft from what I can tell. Pixelation is hell on the skin, what can I say...

TBH you are all doing an awesome job, I appreciate how much easier it is to sit here criticising than to actually go through the time consuming process of getting these things done!

Obviously, thank you very much for taking the time and effort to do this, they really are great and I'll likely be using them, even if there are a select few details that don't always suit my preferences.

[paulgiamatti]

Another note about texture highlighting and shadowing:

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The original super low-resolution textures were designed for a client which didn't support a lot of fancy stuff we take for granted in the Titanium client - advanced lighting being the most important w/r/t highlighting & shadowing. The highlighting you see down the center of the human leather pieces, for example, is an artificial way of creating the illusion of depth and texture, which is something they had to compensate for in the original client because its 3D graphical features were sorely lacking. In today's client, with all of its beefy late-aughts improvements like shadows, vertex & pixel shaders and advanced lighting, the unnecessary highlighting on textures such as this doesn't really add anything and actually just makes the texture look cheesy and dated. This is probably why by the time the Titanium client was released they had ceased all support for the classic character models while they aggressively pushed the new (and horribly shitty) Luclin models in order to showcase the abilities of the updated client.

So the few updated character textures that will be in my package do indeed forego a completely to-the-pixel replication of the original classic textures, but in game and up close they look much better. The originals, even after being upscaled, look decent at a distance and begin to look shittier the closer you get - the remade textures look awesome at a distance and look even better when you get up close. My only regret about including them is that those in the OP are literally the only ones that were remade, other than Xevin's human female textures which have apparently been lost to the void. I value quality over classicness, though I realize some people are married to the lo-fi '99 look of the originals and wouldn't have it any other way. Those people will probably appreciate Cucumbers' package more than mine, or perhaps an upscaled-only package with nothing retouched by us. Otherwise, this is not a project to cater to people's obsessive standards for all things classic - if you don't like what we're doing, don't download our shit.

And to drive home my point, here are some more before and afters:
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