Name Change is in Order

[Lazortag]

If the guild name was meant to refer to the Jewish holocaust, then it would be in very poor taste. But we'll never know if they intended to refer to the Jewish holocaust, and I don't think it's fair to judge their motivations without any real evidence. I just don't buy that naming a guild "Holocaust" is the same as naming a guild "Faggots" (pardon my language), because the latter word is never used to refer to a bundle of sticks. It's only pejorative - whatever meaning it used to have is completely archaic. This is to be expected with an inoffensive word that turns into a pejorative term. But the word "Holocaust" isn't the same - it's an inoffensive word that also came to refer to a historical event. It never became pejorative or offensive. If someone used the word holocaust to refer to the complete devastation of something, no one would gasp or be surprised because that's still an acceptable usage of the word. But if someone referred to a bundle of sticks as "faggots" (again, this is an ugly word so pardon my language), people would probably giggle or be shocked at their usage of the word.

I know that the "Great Calamity" analogy isn't the strongest, but I think it still holds. See this:

Originally Posted by Mitic

i do see the point of OPs post. americans might not be offended by that name but jews in general and especialy european ones can in fact be offended by the guildname holocaust.

this server is played by people from all over the world and not only from the united states of america.

I could say the same thing. Americans might not be offended by the name "the great calamity", but surely many Armenians would be - after all, this game is played by people from all over the world, right? So should we accomodate people living in Armenia who would first and foremost see "the great calamity" as a reference to the genocide of their people?

Then we hear that "the great calamity" isn't offensive because few people know what that refers to. Well, the reason for that might be that the Turkish government actively denies the Armenian genocide ever happening, and gets pissed off at any state that recognizes it. That hardly seems fair, that one term (holocaust) is offensive to use casually because everyone recognizes the atrocities that happened, but the other term (the great calamity) is inoffensive because denialism of the Armenian genocide is more mainstream. If anything that would make it more offensive, no?

Don't get me wrong, if I were in the guild "Holocaust", I'd probably vote for changing the name because some people can be offended. But that doesn't mean that it's rational for those people to be offended. Remember, there's a subtle difference between something being "offensive", and someone being "offended".

Also, I should add that this has nothing to do with discrimination towards Jews, at least not for me. I'm trying to give an honest defense of allowing the guild name because I don't think one group should monopolize the interpretation of a word. It should be obvious from many of my previous posts on this forum (especially where I've argued with Wehrmacht, who denies the holocaust) that I have no prejudices against Jews or anyone. This should also be clear from the fact that I'm the leader of the only guild on red99 that openly tries to make everyone feel comfortable, regardless of their background (I think this is somewhere in our recruitment thread, but it's also one of our main policies). In short, I think it's presumptuous and silly to assume that I'd be opposed to the guild name if it concerned some other identifiable group. It reflects badly on the people arguing against the guild name, who were being perfectly civil and reasonable before, when they start assuming things like this.

[pickled_heretic]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I just don't buy that naming a guild "Holocaust" is the same as naming a guild "Faggots" (pardon my language), because the latter word is never used to refer to a bundle of sticks.

"Faggot" is not usually used to describe bundles of sticks, but is frequently used to describe cigarettes, especially in certain regions of the world.

[Glitch]

Originally Posted by Aruden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That story sounds fishy, Glitch. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There's a difference between a freak accident and the premeditated genocide of several million people.

Right, and just as the name Fish Bait doesn't necessarily refer to the specific instance of a freak accident involving a man being torn apart by hungry fish, the name Holocaust (as stated on page 1) doesn't necessarily refer to the premeditated genocide of several million people.

As stated earlier. "The Holocaust" would probably be an unacceptable and hurtful name.


Besides, I think the the aquarium "accident" was set up by the triads.

[Maurk]

I am offensive, and I find this Jewish.

[pickled_heretic]

There's nothing rational about being offended. It's primarily an illogical, emotional response. That doesn't mean the feelings of those who are offended should be ignored.

[purest]

ITT: victim studies majors and misery profiteers

[pickled_heretic]

Originally Posted by Glitch [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Right, and just as the name Fish Bait doesn't necessarily refer to the specific instance of a freak accident involving a man being torn apart by hungry fish, the name Holocaust (as stated on page 1) doesn't necessarily refer to the premeditated genocide of several million people.

As stated earlier. "The Holocaust" would probably be an unacceptable and hurtful name.


Besides, I think the the aquarium "accident" was set up by the triads.

You're right, "Holocaust" doesn't have to mean the systematic slaughter of millions of jews, but it usually does. Once again: Google holocaust, post results.

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by pickled_heretic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"Faggot" is not usually used to describe bundles of sticks, but is frequently used to describe cigarettes, especially in certain regions of the world.

I guess this is more of a gray area then. I think it probably depends on the intentions of the people making the guild. If someone like Yiblaan (who's openly gay) made a guild with the aforementioned name, I think people would be less offended than if one of the many homophobic red99 players made such a guild. I'm just not sure this is the best analogy since the word in question can also be pejorative, whereas "holocaust" is never pejorative.

[Akim]

lol this thread got way out there, fast.

[Aruden]

Lazortag, thanks for making the first coherent argument in many pages.

First of all, if there was a guild called "The Great Calamity," and Armenian players, who descended from victims of said genocide, told me that they found the name offensive, I would change the guild name if I was a GM of the server. They can choose from a million names. They don't need to have one that has the potential to offend a large demographic of players.

The word "holocaust" isn't offensive in every single context but it is offensive in this onet Its the fact that a PK guild is named "holocaust" that makes it problematic. The obvious association, which I'm sure they had in mind when they chose the guild name, is that they are committing a "holocaust" and the players they kill are the victims of said "holocaust."