1h or 2h for pally

[Estu]

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Gotta laugh out of "... the other DPS classes ... " there, heh.

Whoops, that was a typo. I don't consider paladins a DPS class.

[Nytch]

I have a Sword of Morning and the Shield of Stalwart Seas. Just wondering if that shield is worth rolling and ERU, or if I should just sell it and make a half elf and get a different shield for the easy epic come Velious. If I was going to be using a 2 hander the whole time I would play the Elf if I was going to be bashing I would keep the Erudite.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by Nytch [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have a Sword of Morning and the Shield of Stalwart Seas. Just wondering if that shield is worth rolling and ERU, or if I should just sell it and make a half elf and get a different shield for the easy epic come Velious. If I was going to be using a 2 hander the whole time I would play the Elf if I was going to be bashing I would keep the Erudite.

Gotta keep one thing in mind.
You won't get discriminated due to your race. You WILL get discriminated due to your class. So basically just pick something you'd much rather stare at.

The elf can bash as well, just need a different shield.
Nature's Defender is a bonus, and a very nice one.
Also the plate helm graphics on half elves pre-Velious are not hideous.

Fiery Avenger ain't that hard to do, depending on the size of your wallet or the strength of your guild. Books are out there for sale now, and the only weekly spawn you gotta put some effort into getting will be Miragul.

[Nytch]

That's the reason why I asked about the 1h or 2h. If it isn't going to matter I would just sell off the Stalwart Seas and go with the half elf. But I wanted to keep a hold of it in case the shields did make a huge difference.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by Nytch [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's the reason why I asked about the 1h or 2h. If it isn't going to matter I would just sell off the Stalwart Seas and go with the half elf. But I wanted to keep a hold of it in case the shields did make a huge difference.

I'm just giving you the 'pep talk'.
Whether it matters or not, is subjective and almost always up for debate.

For example, shields were upgraded to be somewhat appealing a lot later down the road. Project1999 will never reach that milestone, so it will not be something to ponder (unless the devs decide to ninja-patch that). I, as a paladin, never actually used them much even when they were upgraded, mainly due to having access to pretty much every drop I wanted/needed, and already using a variety of rune procing 2handed swords, and later epic 1.5 and 2.0. Others, with different live experience than mine, will offer another perspective over the subject.

Another example, in regards to race-deity choice / starting stats choice. Again, it's subjective, and eventually up to the player him-herself. I, again as a paladin, almost always advise someone to go with dwarf/stamina, human/stamina, or halfelf/stamina. Why? Because if you are currently unsure whether or not you will raid and how hardcore will you do it if you do it, a combination of the above will look a lot better on your application at the "Inglourious Mystical Entry" website than Erudite/charisma-intelligence. But again, if you are 'already' in said guild, or you have no ambition of getting BiS in each slot or standing over the corpses of every boss multiple times, that advise might not sound very appealing.

tl ; dr This isn't WoW. Using a shield will not make that huge of a difference over not using one. Still, keep the following in mind

-Carrying a shield in your bags will allow you to equip a 1h slash / blunt / pierce and keep your weapon skills up as you level down the road.
-Carrying a shield in your bags will allow you to swap for a bash then switch back to your 2hander if that is your preferred play style.
-If you have a shield equiped while you're standing somewhere LFGing, some people might take that into consideration when they're looking for tanks (WoW mentality but it still exists).

Try to benefit from everything the class offers. Use them to your maximum advantage. It might sound like a lot of work to have to swap gear mid-fights, or during pulls, but eventually, if you don't have a regular group that you're leveling up with, it will eventually pay you off. Because when people see you holding a stein for example, while you're trying to pacify mobs for a safer pull, at first they will be intrigued and ask you about it. And once they realize you're doing this to make things easier/safer for them, then it's gonna leave a very good and lasting impression.
Because later on, when people see 'Nytch LFG' , they won't be bothered by the fact that you play a 40% exp penalty class, but instead they will try to group with you because you're a fucking good tank that knows what it's doing.

[A1551]

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...With the 16/27 Sword of the Morning and the 25ac/50hp Charred Guardian Shield both so cheap and accessible I definitely advocate using them over the Baton of Faith when you're tanking for a group that includes any recognizable DPS class.

Seriously, the difference in damage output is so small that the extra HP buffer, reduced damage intake, and additional interrupts are worth more than the ca. 1 DPS diff you'll see in actual practice...Paladin is NOT a DPS class, only the Cleric has less damage output potential than the Paladin. Arguing about a difference that is less than 1% of any half-adequate group's damage aggregate output is just silly.

Re - pally and dps. Pallys are terrible DPS, this is true. At low levels, however, theyre fairly competitive, unless yur definition of a "half -adequate group" is a bunch of twinked out monks and rogues. A 30/40 weapon with double attack is still a 30/40 weapon with double attack, even with a pally swinging it, and will put out a significantly larger amount of dps than a 16/27. Mobs at lower level (ie exping sub 50) hp really isnt that big. I dunno where you got your "less than 1%" number from but even with a pallys crappy dps I gotta question it.

Normally this is the point where I'd grab one of my chars and do some parsing and post evidence to prove my point -- sadly I don't have access to a paladin in the appropriate level range to do that at this time. I will say this, if you think the difference between a 16/27 and a 30/40 is 1 dps I'm not quite sure what I can say besides go download a parser because they aren't even close.

Look, shield/1 hander SHOULD be the way to go with a pally. Shields should be an awesome defensive aid that make you way more tanky at the cost of some dps. It's so painfully logical that its hard to believe its not true. Sadly, this is classic EQ, and they did some bone-headed things. They did fix it eventually, but not in the timeframe of this server. Here, shields let you bash (undeniably useful) and take slightly less damage. Emphasis on the slightly. Using a 30/40 2 hander lets you do a lot of damage at only a very very slight reduction in your tankability, and losing the option of shield bashes (which are useful vs casters). The upgrade in your DPS isn't slight. Its a BIG upgrade. Literally an entire order of magnitude higher than the mitigation lost, easily. And you can still ghetto bash with the 2-hander if yur not lazy.

*note as mentioned it is true the SoB will be dmg capped for a while which makes it less good till the cap comes off..but certainly by level 30 there is no comparing them.

And I once again wanna reiterate this isnt to say 2 hander is ALWAYS the way to go. If your group is a chanter with a chamred pet two twinked out monks an epic rogue one healer and you, an you're fighting casters, then yeah, youd wanna sword/board. Your DPS would be irrelevant. But for most cases (non casters, groups with ok dps only) that 2hander is gonna be the winner and it wont be close.

To the OP -- to summarize, the more DPS you have in a group and the more people in the group, the more valuable the shield will be as your overall dps contribution goes down. In high dps groups I'd recommend the shield. Just keep in mind the benefit of that shield is pretty small, and your personal DPS will be way higher with even a cheap 2 hander, so in smaller groups or groups with light to moderate dps you're most likely better off with the 2 hander.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by A1551 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Re - pally and dps. Pallys are terrible DPS, this is true. At low levels, however, theyre fairly competitive, unless yur definition of a "half -adequate group" is a bunch of twinked out monks and rogues. A 30/40 weapon with double attack is still a 30/40 weapon with double attack, even with a pally swinging it, and will put out a significantly larger amount of dps than a 16/27. Mobs at lower level (ie exping sub 50) hp really isnt that big. I dunno where you got your "less than 1%" number from but even with a pallys crappy dps I gotta question it.

Normally this is the point where I'd grab one of my chars and do some parsing and post evidence to prove my point -- sadly I don't have access to a paladin in the appropriate level range to do that at this time. I will say this, if you think the difference between a 16/27 and a 30/40 is 1 dps I'm not quite sure what I can say besides go download a parser because they aren't even close.

Look, shield/1 hander SHOULD be the way to go with a pally. Shields should be an awesome defensive aid that make you way more tanky at the cost of some dps. It's so painfully logical that its hard to believe its not true. Sadly, this is classic EQ, and they did some bone-headed things. They did fix it eventually, but not in the timeframe of this server. Here, shields let you bash (undeniably useful) and take slightly less damage. Emphasis on the slightly. Using a 30/40 2 hander lets you do a lot of damage at only a very very slight reduction in your tankability, and losing the option of shield bashes (which are useful vs casters). The upgrade in your DPS isn't slight. Its a BIG upgrade. Literally an entire order of magnitude higher than the mitigation lost, easily. And you can still ghetto bash with the 2-hander if yur not lazy.

*note as mentioned it is true the SoB will be dmg capped for a while which makes it less good till the cap comes off..but certainly by level 30 there is no comparing them.

And I once again wanna reiterate this isnt to say 2 hander is ALWAYS the way to go. If your group is a chanter with a chamred pet two twinked out monks an epic rogue one healer and you, an you're fighting casters, then yeah, youd wanna sword/board. Your DPS would be irrelevant. But for most cases (non casters, groups with ok dps only) that 2hander is gonna be the winner and it wont be close.

To the OP -- to summarize, the more DPS you have in a group and the more people in the group, the more valuable the shield will be as your overall dps contribution goes down. In high dps groups I'd recommend the shield. Just keep in mind the benefit of that shield is pretty small, and your personal DPS will be way higher with even a cheap 2 hander, so in smaller groups or groups with light to moderate dps you're most likely better off with the 2 hander.

You are contradicting yourself a bit, if you didn't notice.
Paladins at low levels having 'fairly competitive' DPS with other classes means anything bellow 20, when the damage cap effectively cripples every melee class, and even then others already have double attack and knights don't.

Can't be talking about 'low levels' and Sub-50 in the same sentence. Classic high level dungeons included Lower Guk, Nagafen's Lair and Kedge Keep. If you think there aren't mobs in there with quite a lot of HPs you're mistaken. They have less HP than 'some' Kunark ones, but they still have quite a lot compared to the toons fighting them.

Monks with Jmace/KD will blow your DPS out of the water. Rogues with Serpent's Tooth / Bone Razor will do the same. You consider them 'twinked' for P1999 measures? How about Tstaff's / Runed Fighter Staff and Ragebringers, because that's probably 'twinking' at the moment. Both classes have higher Offence - Higher melee skills than you. They are also attacking mobs from behind, which means they don't get blocked/dodged/parried.

Knight classes biggest advantage is the ability to hold agro on harder and higher level group content than warriors. As a knight at 46, you can tank Efreeti exp groups even when there are monks/rogues/enchanters that are 10 levels higher than you in your group. That's 99,9999% on your spells and the fact that even when you get resisted, the threat generation is so high, that the other classes can still do their jobs without much issues.

When you're tanking mobs that are -2/+5 of your level range, then 2handed or 1h/shield is irrelevant. Because either will suck, and suck royally.

[kaev]

Originally Posted by Lorraine [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...
When you're tanking mobs that are -2/+5 of your level range, then 2handed or 1h/shield is irrelevant. Because either will suck, and suck royally.

Slight exxageration there, but pretty much the key point. When you're tanking, it's you the mobs will dodge/parry/riposte, your DPS will go from crap to crap-minus. When you're tanking the only things that matter are holding agro and not dying. Also, the hate (threat) from 2handers is quite noticeably less than from 1handers with the same damage output, unless your 2hander outclasses your 1hander for damage by a fair bit it'll contribute less to your hate generation, and that will matter at times spells or no.

[A1551]

I am not contradicting myself its just our definition of low levels doesnt match. Which is fine (although I did define exactly what I meant in my post). Now i did specifically state in my thread i was referring to level < 50 because I knew it could be ambiguous. I also admitted in the post anyone who was damage capped would not be better off with the BoF, that isn't in question. At very high levels, mobs HP jumps dramatically making fights much longer per mob, increasing the value of survivability while paladin dps increases don't really keep up even with great weapons. That's where my dividing line comes from.

So moving on. I was grouped with a paladin last night, who lucky for me, had both a SOTM/shield and a Baton of faith. I was on a level 52 warrior, he a lvl 51 paladin (Durothil). We were at BNB for grinding in a group of varying compositions for maybe 4-5 hours. So heres the situation and some real numbers, in a real exp group with a good mix of twinked and nontwinked players.

First, the paladins dps WAS competitive with a BoF. It was NOT competitive in any way shape or form with the SOTM. Our dps order was generally me (52 warrior), chanter pet (charmed bat) then paladin with BoF. I was dual wielding (usually bloodpoints or SCD/bloodpoint) with an fbss and swift like the wind. He had a sky haste belt, baton of faith, and swift like the wind. The crappy sky belt mind you not the 40% one. Group also had another warrior (Filbus) who was swinging a lammy and wurmslayer and was around lvl 48-49, I don't know his haste item but he also had SLTW obviously. Durothil was outdpsing this warrior consistently with the baton of faith and pretty close to me. Later we had a rogue join the group (Chevey) nonepic nontwinked lower level (45-46) and once again durothils DPS was actually slightly higher.

To put some numbers on it, I was parsing in around 30-35 dps, he was parsing in around 26-30 with the BoF. The SoTM? 16-20 dps, dropping him from competitive for #1 to dead last. So there are some numbers for everyone.

The point here is that while paladin DPS isn't the best, it is far from insubstantial, and in many cases will trump boarding for the tiny extra mitigation. Using a good ratio, cheap, 2 hander like the BoF is a major DPS increase (about 35-50% for duro last night!) at a very minor mitigation loss (1-3%) plus the potential loss of shield bash (only partially valid due to ghetto bashing). Obviously a good paladin will have to weigh these pros and cons based on their groups situation and pick appropriately -- but it is absolutely true that killing mobs faster reduces your overall damage taken per mob. And a 35-50% increase in dps is nothing to sneeze at.

[A1551]

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Slight exxageration there, but pretty much the key point. When you're tanking, it's you the mobs will dodge/parry/riposte, your DPS will go from crap to crap-minus. When you're tanking the only things that matter are holding agro and not dying. Also, the hate (threat) from 2handers is quite noticeably less than from 1handers with the same damage output, unless your 2hander outclasses your 1hander for damage by a fair bit it'll contribute less to your hate generation, and that will matter at times spells or no.

Kaev I agree with what you are saying here. As evidenced by the actual numbers I posted right above the dps bonus for the BoF over a SOTM (as an example) is pretty damn big, and even with the aggro bonus for 1 handers a few people have empirically shown here you're still going to come out ahead on meelee dps threat generation with a 35-50% dps increase. The SOTM does have a good aggro proc, but so does a lamentation staff (also cheap, also an excellent ratio)

Lorraine I also agree with most of what youre saying. Noone is debating that a knights use is in being good at holding aggro, even at ridiculous level ranges (ie the freeti example). Obviously your DPS in that situation will be absolute crap and totally inconsequential. But honestly, so will your tanking. If you're tanking those at 46 effectively its because theyre being slowed, in which case a bard or shaman or ranger or really anyone could do the same thing. The shield AC mitigation as a 46 pally fighting the freeti camp is not doing anyone any favors, although the shield bash might. You gave kind of an extreme example, and no one is arguing that different situations may not warrant the shield. But take a more normal exp group where most mobs are DB to everyone and everyone is within 4-5 levels of each other and theres only a few dpsers or god forbid a duo/trio (in which paladins can be amazingly effective) and in most cases the paladins probably going to come out ahead with the high damage 2 hander.