Game Mechanics: Sneak pulling revisited

[Caiu]

The patch notes I work with come from https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/f...klnT3llZTA3OXc Direct Link: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9...WJUZGVZVXFzT1E and where possible are referenced against http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/ for accuracy. However there is a lot missing from Baldio's so this can't always be done. All other sources listed below.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....4/ny-zsdZM-xYJ
8/5/99

"There is a problem with feign death in that once you get up, the
monsters that were attacking you realize that you were faking it and
have a tendency of rampaging back to you. If you have to Feign, once the
monsters are gone, you can Sneak before getting up and they won't
realize that you were faking it. This gives you more time to get to a
zone or get prepared to confront them because once you stop sneaking
they will hunt you down."

Sorta sounds like how sneak would blur on p1999 except on live it was a blur that would only persist while still sneaking. This would change on patch day 12/01/99 which introduced a new FD system. Both the old and new system were explained on 11/16/99. These patch notes and the statement from Usenet are the only things I could see explaining a mechanic similar to the old sneak blurring. There is no mention of anything resembling a blurring after that patch. There is plenty of mention however of using sneak in the act of the inital pull for the players benefit which I'll get to.
November 16th, 4:30pm

> ---------------------
>
> Feign Death was recently changed by the Tuning Team to reflect evolving
> gameplay issues. Since two of the three classes that get Feign Death get
it
> through spells, I thought this might be a good place to explain the
changes.
>
> Previously, when you used Feign Death (and assuming you cast the spell
> successfully or, in the case of the Monk, made your skill roll) hostile
> monsters would decided that you were dead and wander off. When you later
> got up, they would still remember that they were angry with you. If you
> were within sight, they would immediately come after you. If not, they
> would come after you at some later point. This might happen within a few
> minutes, or could happen even a few hours later. The only way to be
> absolutely sure that a monster had forgotten about you was to zone.
>
> With our new changes, about a third of the time that you successfully
Feign
> Death, the monster will immediately forget about you, similar to an
> Enchanter casting Memory Blur. If they do NOT forget about you, they will
> immediately come after you when you stand up. No more monsters coming
back
> at irregular amounts of time - it should be immediate or not at all.
>
> This is a change - the old way, if you Feigned Death a SINGLE TIME, the
> monster would ALWAYS remember you. This way, they remember you about
> two-thirds of the time.
>
> Using the old Feign Death, you could Feign Death multiple times to try to
> confuse the monster. After about seven or eight times doing this, most
> monsters would eventually forget they were mad at you.
>
> With the new Feign Death, if you Feign Death once the monster has about a
65
> percent chance of remembering you. Twice and the monster has about a 50
> percent chance of remembering you. Four times means about 20 percent, and
> six times means about 8 percent. This is very similar to the old Feign
> Death.
>
> Another addition to the new Feign Death involves a monster "going home."
> When you Feign Death, most monsters will return to where they were before
> the fight. If a monster returns to its initial location, it will
> immediately forget about you greater then 90 percent of the time.
> Therefore, if you Feign Death and stay down long enough for a monster to
"go
> home," you should be safe when you stand up a majority of the time. If
the
> monster IS still mad at you, it will return immediately, rather then
> wandering back later at some irregular interval.
>
>
> *FEIGN DEATH UPDATE*
>
> After further testing and watching these changes on the Live verses the
Test
> Server, we will bechanging Feign Death again on the next patch.
>
> New changes will make it so that if the creature is less than level 35,
the
> monster will always forget about you. If the creature greater then level
35,
> then the monster will use the changes detailed above.
>
> - The EverQuest Team

Alla comments just wern't cutting it for me so I tried combing through Usenet for more reliable sources.

Lannella / Busker
9/13/01

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....0/Qum7uOgJeNkJ

I can be a better puller than a FDing monk. With proper application of
Sneak while pulling, you can separate a camp without ever pulling them all
in the first place. (This one I've still got to learn, but it's
awe-inspiring to see it done)."

Tim Smith
9/13/01

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....0/tYcKs_PYeyYJ

Won't that only work if the camp is laid out right? Also, if you do
get more than one, or if you pick up an add on the way back, you are
stuck with it, aren't you? The monk is not.

That's why monks are the best pullers. They have the skills to handle
the situation when things do not go right.

--Tim Smith

Mark A. Rimer
9/14/01

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....0/5-DUgJA0H0gJ

Tim Smith <reply_i...@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
> Won't that only work if the camp is laid out right? Also, if you do
> get more than one, or if you pick up an add on the way back, you are
> stuck with it, aren't you?
Absolutely not! The thing to remember is that sneak lowers aggro
radius. I have _many_ times separated a camp, and with a good
lead back to my group, had an aggro blue/even/yellow/red pop
in front of me...it is entirely possible to:

1) push "sneak" while running
2) sneak past the critter
3) keep sneaking until your own pull is also
past the critter
4) un-sneak and finish the run back to the
group

The trick is aggro distance. If you're sneaking when both
you AND the pull go past the possible add, he won't add,
either. Distance has a lot to do with it, as well as facing.

But it is EXTREMELY possible to sneak pull right past
an aggro mob with another of his friends in tow.

>That's why monks are the best pullers. They have the skills to handle
> the situation when things do not go right.
That is true under level 50 or so, and some folks would
argue it's only true up to level 35. After then, I've seen
entirely too many monks successfully FD and get pounded
to death while laying on the ground...might as well have
the druid pull.
Sneak pulling is much more art than skill...but skill comes
in to it, too :-).

The ending statement with succesful FD's failing gave me pause and I looked around.
September 11, 2001 3:00 am Patch

Fixed a long-standing bug that was causing Feign Death to fail when
several characters were on the NPCís hate list along with the character
using Feign Death. Weíd like to extend much thanks to the monk
community who helped us track this one down. Also fixed a problem with
the monkís ëBlockí skill which inadvertantly was recapped at a lower
than normal skill level in recent months. Kudos to ìFanedî of the
ìMonkly Businessî bulletin board who brow-beat Gordon with the facts
until he gave in and looked at the code [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]"

A monk better be certain that he only has however many mobs he intended on his tail. Up until that point coming into camp intending to just flop one or two in camp could cause a nasty train. This bug would explain what he was witnessing. Verant's use of 'long-standing' makes me think it had been an issue possibly since the December 99 patch.



http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/f...-sneak-pulling
Written by Kuurus IceBear

Basically, Sneak does two things - depending where you are in relation to the mob. One, automatically sets you to indifferent if in the rear arc of the mob - and two, reduces aggro range if in the forward arc of the mob.

If you come up behind two mobs and fire a bow, or throw at one - only the target will come as long as you keep sneak engaged. It negates him from chain aggroing the second mob. As if the first mob normally says "Come on, there's a guy over here" and the second says "I don't see anything", shrugs and stays where he is.

There are some mobs that work on social aggro that don't need to "see" the player to be aggro'd by the other mob, most of the time sneak pulling won't help in these isolated instances. But there are LOTS of mobs people have told me are linked by social aggro and I couldn't sneak pull just one, yet I have *shrug*

Anyways, most mobs in norrath work on chain aggro - one runs by aggro'd, it aggro's another, BUT Sneak negates this in most instances.

Sneak pulling can be done from in front too, but requires greater range. Throwing will not work from in front....you can be in front of the target, but NOT in front of the additional mobs you don't want to come. Throwing requires you to be too close to be out of aggro range when hide drops, even with sneak engaged. A nice bow with good range works well for this. If you are far enough away, with sneak engaged, you can fire at one, and the other won't come, even if facing you.

The important thing is KEEP SNEAK ENGAGED until the mob is past anything else it can aggro on it's way to you. If you get hit so that sneak is off, or just take it off, then all normal chain aggro comes into effect.

By the way, because of this, sneak pulling casters is trickier. If they hit you with a nuke, sneak comes off, re-engage it quickly and you have a chance still to negate any chain aggro.

In the end, it's all in the placement of the mobs, use angles and line of sight to minimize aggro with the others you don't want. It's not a simple case of "put sneak on, stand in front of two mobs, hit one and the other shouldn't come". There is no substitute for experience, pathing and aggro is different everywhere. Learn exactly how sneak affects/reduces that aggro in different places and then put it to use.

Responses to some questions:

Yes, aggro radius pulling is useful with sneak too. I use this in Karnors basement where the halls are narrow an there is no room for range weapons.

Line of sight helps a lot in these cases. If you get in a position where one can see you but another can't, while having sneak and hide engaged, then you drop hide - but keep sneak on.

Soon as you see one start to aggro and move, back away quickly. As long as you are out of aggro radius of the other by the time it hits you and sneak drops, you only get the one.

Using this, I have been able to keep the basement completely cleared, getting nothing but single pulls for 8 hours. It makes having the "necessary" cleric and chanter unecessary in an area that gives great xp - I've done the whole basement with nothing but 2 rogues and a druid.

As for Hide, it doesn't really affect the chain aggro betwen mobs - Sneak takes care of this. The usefullness of Hide only comes into play if you have to pass other mobs on your way back to the group with your pull.

If you are hidden, you can pass other mobs safely without aggroing even though your pull is aggro and following you.

p.s. - Nimm is correct, I was simply referring to the pulling range of *most* weapons as far as pulling safely from the front. Of course there are some exceptions. Edited by: Zato at: 6/11/01 11:53:47 am

The original author Kuurus put it very clumsily in the main body but Zato's responses to questions clears the air a lot. I could not tell what function hide served in Kuurus' explanation and it muddied the waters. Zato's explanation also sheds light on why rogues in the right hands were quite the pullers themselves from the Usenet posts.

I read that body pulling works on Live and there was some question as to mechanics changing over time. It did not work with body pulling originally according to this patch.
May 8, 2002 3:00 am Patch

** Skills **

- Sneak only breaks when a character is hit, not when he hits someone.

So there is some proof of mechanics changing. According to a monkly-business guide sneaking and then throwing was said to have been changed to not drop sneak in late 2000. I could see them thinking this was too powerful and changing to body-pulls but it is outside of the vanilla-velious timeline as would all other subsequent mechanic changes.

https://web.archive.org/web/20111127...ead.php?t=8889
09-25-2000

4) Using Thrown Weapons and Sneak to split.

With the changes to Sneak (no longer dropping when you use a thrown weapon ) another use has come up! In order for this to work, you must be using a ranged weapon with a ranger greater then the static aggro of the mob ( ie method # 3 listed above): engage sneak, throw, insta split. Personally I'm using summoned suriken for this, and I haven't had to use FD on a split since I got back into EQ. This includes splitting spawns where the mobs are literally on top of each other, although some times I have hit the mob i didn't have targeted, I have never aggro'ed the other.

[Rygar]

Interesting post for sure, it is interesting to see the FD comment on the memblur aspect. It says hitting FD 6 times results in the mob only having an 8% chance of remembering you. I have never seen this on P99 since the sneak changes, I have tried popping and dropping a ton to split yet seems like your chances of memblurring decrease with each drop (opposite of what was described). I wind up having to let the mobs reset and try again (I've since used reverse yo-yo pulling with great success).

On the sneak pulling from a rogue perspective, it is very curious. The only specific instance he gave was the KC basement, and I've never been there so don't know how the mobs are spaced out and if those mobs social each other on live or what.

He seems to say early that if a mob has social agro sneaking will do nothing to help, but then contradicts that saying some mobs he was 'told were social' (who knows if this is true) he can sneak pull them right through each other.

For instance in the Hole, rats and undead don't social with elementals but I could see how some people thought they would. If a rogue was pulling from jail and out past castle he may pull a rat and sneak/hide past a few elemental spawns and think his sneaking negated the agro, when in truth they wouldn't have agroed anyways.

Still some good research, more specifics on what mobs were pulled through what would be more convincing in my opinion (and what level the puller was).

[Brocode]

Nice amount of info, about running and insta sneaking, and passing by unaggroed have done, but not while pulling, shoulda test this.

Most of the info should be alike this FD, but sneak with blur and the way it works itself. Hopefully devs will dig into it and make it true classic!

[Foxplay]

Sneak was not suppose to make Feign a 100% blur, the could still turn around and remember you above 35, regardless of sneak activated as you where still remaining on their hate list

However Sneak did block social aggro provided the mob you aggro does not run in front of the mobs you have a successful sneak angle on. something that seems messed up currently on p99 (Not currently playing a monk so I cant really test *unless i log onto a rogue or something*). But tagging the rear mob with sneak (with a 2nd monk) was a very common tactic on classic. As well as breaking camps that where laid out correctly (aka. exposed rears). I distinctly remember being able to single pull any guard's that where parallel (side by side) with a sneak behind both. However even with sneak if you pull right thru the mob or your pull mob goes in front of his face, it would aggro them.

[Caiu]

Essentially all the things that make sneak pulling work are still in the game. However we are using a Live mechanic whereby mobs of the same faction will assist one another even if the sneak angles are right. This isn't accurate for the classic timeline.

[diamondfist]

*bump*

Sneak pulling is very much a classic mechanic... this doesnt just gimp monks its any rogue/ranger/halfling with a throwing item out there.

[Boilon]

Come back to P99 and find out that my monk sucks lol...

[Pyrocat]

Originally Posted by diamondfist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

*bump*

Sneak pulling is very much a classic mechanic... this doesnt just gimp monks its any rogue/ranger/halfling with a throwing item out there.

.

[nyclin]

bump

[Caiu]

^