Is Seal Team going to wake the sleeper?

[Tunabros]

loramin shut up bruh

no one cares

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That doesn't make sense because Essence Lens requires Warder loot to be turned off. You can't open up Essence Lens without closing Warder loot. There is no way to wake sleeper AND keep warders up. If that was the case, people would indeed keep the Warders up for more items.

Arguing about waking the sleeper is really an argument about who deserves what loot more: Warriors/Monks for robe/scepter, or most other classes with Essence Lens? What gives you the right to decide? There is no right answer, which is why it isn't a dick move. Warriors/Monks become sad when Sleeper dies, but other classes become happy. This isn't a situation where the only thing you do is turn off loot.

A) we're talking about a single item vs. a whole zone's worth of items

B) regardless, even if it was switched and post-Sleeper we got a bunch of items ... it's still a small minority of players denying the entire server, without that server having any say in the matter ... aka a "dick move"

P.S. And if you'd actually brought this point up ten pages ago (instead of repeating "but the game allows it!" for pages) we could have ... been at this point 10 pages ago [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A) we're talking about a single item vs. a whole zone's worth of items

B) regardless, even if it was switched and post-Sleeper we got a bunch of items ... it's still a small minority of players denying the entire server, without that server having any say in the matter ... aka a "dick move"

P.S. And if you'd actually brought this point up ten pages ago (instead of repeating "but the game allows it!" for pages) we could have ... been at this point 10 pages ago [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I didn't keep repeating "the game allows it". You just don't read what I say lol. I can lead a horse to water, but I cannot make it drink. You really need to learn how to read what people say properly, because it is painfully obvious you aren't reading if you go back through the posts. It doesn't help your argument at all.

The biggest raid guild on the server, who plays way more than you do, does have more of a say than you do in raid matters. That is the only fair way to do it, if you put in the time, you get the benefits.

I am glad to see you have gone away from your computer program analogies at least[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You still haven't countered my point about you "loot denying" the whole server Essence Lens. It's the same thing, either way people aren't getting the loot they want, so your point is moot here.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Essence_Lens_Quest It's 5 great items, not one.

Most Warder loot isn't that great to be honest (Many other raid pieces are better), so it isn't a "Whole Zone's worth". Basically the only Warder Loot worth getting is Scepter of Destruction, Shroud of Longetivity, and Tinker's Mask for vanity. The Essence Lens Quest items for Ring and Earring are basically third or second best in slot for all classes, so it is nothing to sneeze at. This is especially good considering BiS Earrings and Rings are AoW or Vulak loot which most players will never get.

[Tethler]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nope, I am not being unnecessarily pedantic to troll. You just keep claiming this nebulous idea of "It's way different", without giving a good reason. That isn't a valid argument hehe, it is just being lazy. If you can honestly explain the difference, that would be great.

I'll make it real simple for you. Being "dickish" or "pulling a dick move" is a subjective thing. It depends on intent. If a guild chooses to take an optional action with the intended purpose of negatively impacting the rest of the player base, the other people that had no agency in the situation tend to view that negatively. A "dick move" if you will.

All of that BS about "it's part of the server code", "the devs can choose not to implement it" etc. is irrelevant. If the intent of the guild is to "deny pixels", it's pretty cut and dry.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Tethler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll make it real simple for you. Being "dickish" or "pulling a dick move" is a subjective thing. It depends on intent. If a guild chooses to take an optional action with the intended purpose of negatively impacting the rest of the player base, the other people that had no agency in the situation tend to view that negatively. A "dick move" if you will.

All of that BS about "it's part of the server code", "the devs can choose not to implement it" etc. is irrelevant. If the intent of the guild is to "deny pixels", it's pretty cut and dry.

It is indeed quite simple. I already went over intent earlier.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yup. The Dev's intention to remove legacy items is to keep P99 as classic as possible.

The Dev's intention to allow the Sleeper to be awoken is to remove legacy items to keep P99 as classic as possible.

Same intent. The only difference is the Dev's actually give player's control over when to remove the items, rather than the standard fixed date within the patch timeline. I honestly think that is a pretty cool idea, it gives the player's on the server some say as to when we should remove specific legacy items from the drop table.

Now, you may be asking "What right does Seal Team have to decide this for the entire server"? That is simple, they are the best raiding guild on the server. They have spent more time successfully raiding than anyone else, so they certainly do have more of a say in this matter than other players. If you put in the time, you get the benefits.

[Tethler]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is indeed quite simple. I already went over intent earlier.

That's just a bunch of irrelivent spin. If the goal of the person or group performing the action is to the intentional detriment of others, it's dickish.

Comparing devs to Seal Team or any other guild is disingenuous because they absolutely do not have the same intent. The intent of devs is to follow a classic timeline, which happens to include item removal. The intent of a guild denying pixels is to solidify some type of perceived advantage after having acquired that advantage for themselves.

A guild farming as much as possible, and then permenantly shutting everyone else out from the content the moment viable competition arrives and devs following a clearly laid out timeline are laughably different things.

The fact that you're going through these excessive mental gymnastics shows that you're either trying really hard to justify dick behavior so you don't feel like the bad guy while engaging in said dick behavior, or you are in fact trolling, because I refuse to believe you are this dense.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Tethler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's just a bunch of irrelivent spin. If the goal of the person or group performing the action is to the intentional detriment of others, it's dickish.

Comparing devs to Seal Team or any other guild is disingenuous because they absolutely do not have the same intent. The intent of devs is to follow a classic timeline, which happens to include item removal. The intent of a guild denying pixels is to solidify some type of perceived advantage after having acquired that advantage for themselves.

A guild farming as much as possible, and then permenantly shutting everyone else out from the content the moment viable competition arrives and devs following a clearly laid out timeline are laughably different things.

The fact that you're going through these excessive mental gymnastics shows that you're either trying really hard to justify dick behavior so you don't feel like the bad guy while engaging in said dick behavior, or you are in fact trolling, because I refuse to believe you are this dense.

The simple issue here is you don't like Seal Team, so you attributing the worst possible intent to them, all the while ignoring the basic logic of the situation.

1. No matter what you are denying items to players, either Essence Lens or Warder Loot.

2. Seal Team's intent realistically matches the Dev's intent, not your twisted assumption.

3. Seal Team has more say on this than you because they play the game more.

4. The "classic timeline" statistically is waking the sleeper based on all the sleepers awoken on live and on blue.

5. The devs are not duty bound to follow the timeline exactly, and in many cases have not. There are plenty of non classic mechanics the Dev's have implemented to improve players experience. Removing the Sleeper mechanic is not one, and they had 10 years to do it.

[Tethler]

Originally Posted by Pedantic Ogre

The simple issue here is you don't like Seal Team, so you attributing the worst possible intent to them

False. I have no ill will toward anyone in seal team, neither the players nor leadership. I have had generally positive experiences with ST members.

Originally Posted by Pedantic Ogre

1. No matter what you are denying items to players, either Essence Lens or Warder Loot.

This essence lens argument you keep bringing up is a joke. Access to a quest that provides 0 BiS items vs 4 raid mobs, 3 that can be farmed weekly to maintain loot acquisition. The loot output of killable warders easily outweighs access to 1 quest.

Originally Posted by Pedantic Ogre

2. Seal Team's intent realistically matches the Dev's intent, not your twisted assumption.

Yeah, totally. The ST approach to sleeper is that it's in the code, so they have no choice but to wake it. Lol, dude.

I have no doubt they will wake the sleeper at some point. If they do it right when they have viable competition in Sleepers Tomb, the intent will be clear as day.

Not bothering responding to points 3-5 because they're dumb.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Tethler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

False. I have no ill will toward anyone in seal team, neither the players nor leadership. I have had generally positive experiences with ST members.

You clearly do, because your whole argument rests around intent, and you seem to assume they are just sitting around waiting with baited breath for the moment they can deny your pixels and laugh in your face about it.

What if that is not their intent, and they just want to do the sleeper fight like every other big guild on servers past?

[Albanwr]

People complaining about this have no intention of even trying to get Sleepers loot. What on earth.