Ogre Frontal Stun Immunity with Illusion?

[Vaarsuvius]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nah, AoN is quite over hyped and over priced for what it does for you.

Most races are roughly human size or taller. This means the unshrinking benefit is already only affecting a minority of characters. On top of that, many small race classes have other means to unshrink. Rogues get illusion masks, Enchanters get illusions, Necros get Lich (Skeleton), etc.

Not a lot of gnomes/halflings/dwarfs are going to be FTE racing in ToV. Most pullers are going to be human sized or taller. This is Monks, Necros, SKs, etc. In the rare occasions where this does occur, AoN may be a justified DKP/Plat expense if there aren't people to consistently borrow an AoN from.

Gnome mages in raids may have a bit of trouble due to their size, but in a raid guild there will be people willing to let the COTH mage borrow an AoN for a click. Or they will just COTH the COTH mage to be lazy and safe lol.

As I said earlier, the faction adjustment is the best part about AoN. However, for MOST players, it is easier/faster to fix their faction, as opposed to grind 300k for an AoN, or spend a considerable amount of DKP for it. This is also assuming their class does not have an existing illusion clickie/spell they can use. I think most players would agree that 300k is not worth the ability to buy/bank in OT. You can easily get a port to another city and hammer back to Kunark. That is much cheaper, even over a long period of time.

AoN would be most useful for someone like an Iksar warrior, since they have limited travel spell options, and no alternate abilities that allow them to bank or buy/sell at merchants. Even then, however, 300k is quite a steep price, and fixing faction usually isn't hard.

As you stated, aside from the über status it confers, being able to use almost any vendor/bank without having to go back to Cabilis or gipsy camps to do so is really invaluable. At least all for those areas where you'll be KoS with bear Form. Or stick to Velious wher ikkies are not despised

As an iksar shaman I can at least use Gate or use expensive potions to move around Norrath, but any iksar melee will really have a hard time sellibg/ buying stuff

[Worry]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nah, AoN is quite over hyped and over priced for what it does for you.

In your opinion yes.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Most races are roughly human size or taller. This means the unshrinking benefit is already only affecting a minority of characters. On top of that, many small race classes have other means to unshrink. Rogues get illusion masks, Enchanters get illusions, Necros get Lich (Skeleton), etc.

What does this have to do with anything? Of course most races aren't huge. This is an idiotic argument imo, because that's like saying "Ragebringer can only be used by one class so it should be half the price!"

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not a lot of gnomes/halflings/dwarfs are going to be FTE racing in ToV. Most pullers are going to be human sized or taller. This is Monks, Necros, SKs, etc. In the rare occasions where this does occur, AoN may be a justified DKP/Plat expense if there aren't people to consistently borrow an AoN from.

So you think the ability to borrow someone elses RARE item negates value for said item? Lol.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As I said earlier, the faction adjustment is the best part about AoN. However, for MOST players, it is easier/faster to fix their faction, as opposed to grind 300k for an AoN, or spend a considerable amount of DKP for it. This is also assuming their class does not have an existing illusion clickie/spell they can use. I think most players would agree that 300k is not worth the ability to buy/bank in OT. You can easily get a port to another city and hammer back to Kunark. That is much cheaper, even over a long period of time.

Your arguments make no sense man, of course you don't need an AoN to play. That wasn't the implication, no item is required to play a class or character. The value of ANY item is due to rarity and usefulness. AoN exceeds in both categories in your own words. You can play butt ass naked on a Necro, but that doesn't mean a Zlandi's Heart should be cheaper because of that. Absolutely ridiculous. "This item is overpriced because I can constantly get ports for cheaper than the item that helps me bank almost anywhere"

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

AoN would be most useful for someone like an Iksar warrior, since they have limited travel spell options, and no alternate abilities that allow them to bank or buy/sell at merchants. Even then, however, 300k is quite a steep price, and fixing faction usually isn't hard.

It's 200k not 300k.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Worry [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What does this have to do with anything? Of course most races aren't huge. This is an idiotic argument imo, because that's like saying "Ragebringer can only be used by one class so it should be half the price!"

Yes, that Ragebringer argument is silly. Good thing I didn't make that argument[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What I said was most races are human size. Changing from human size to a human sized skeleton does nothing. Big races have plenty of options to shrink themselves as well. The only time where Skeleton Illusion can play a decent role for size changing is small races (going from gnome size to human size, for example). However, the need for that situation is not very common, and many small race classes have other options to deal with this. Most zones that have this problem can be levitated in. ToV was specifically mentioned, since levitate doesn't work in there. However, Gnomes/Halflings/Dwarfs are rarely doing things in ToV that require absolute speed when going over large steps. In these cases, other raid members can help you out. If you are someone who is a dedicated raid player AND a small race, AoN may indeed be worth it for you. That doesn't change the idea that is is overhyped and overpriced for most players[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Worry [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So you think the ability to borrow someone elses RARE item negates value for said item? Lol.

I never said this either. Of course rarity plays a role in price. That doesn't mean the item can't be considered overpriced and overhyped for what you get[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Take Rubicite Armor as an example. It isn't worth the price, and it is overhyped. That doesn't mean I am discouraging people from getting it. I think it is awesome if you have a character in full Rubicite Armor, wearing an AoN. That doesn't change those item's overall utility. The rarity is the cause for the price, not the utility.

Originally Posted by Worry [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your arguments make no sense man, of course you don't need an AoN to play. That wasn't the implication, no item is required to play a class or character. The value of ANY item is due to rarity and usefulness. AoN exceeds in both categories in your own words. You can play butt ass naked on a Necro, but that doesn't mean a Zlandi's Heart should be cheaper because of that. Absolutely ridiculous. "This item is overpriced because I can constantly get ports for cheaper than the item that helps me bank almost anywhere"

I never made any of these arguments either. Not sure where you are getting this from. I never said you need AoN to play. I simply said the price of AoN isn't worth what you get. It is much easier to just fix your faction on most class/race combinations, instead of farming 200-300k for an item that does some faction adjustment for you. You could fix your faction on multiple characters before you reach 200-300k, unless you are very lucky on high value item drops.

Originally Posted by Worry [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's 200k not 300k.

200k is still overpriced for what you get[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not discouraging people from getting AoN, or any other rare item whose value is dictated more by price than utility. I am simply saying AoN really isn't that great of an item, when you look at what it gives you, and when you look at what it takes to acquire it.

[Zekayy]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I do not believe Ogre Illusion gives you FSI. The wiki page doesn't say so either. I can try it on my Enchanter later to confirm. Usually Enchanters use Troll Illusion for the +1 HP/Tick.

EDIT: The main reasons why you use illusions that do not give you stat buffs is for fashion, shrink, night vision, or for adjusting faction. If you are in Oggok (Ogre City), you should use Ogre form so you get a boost to your ogre faction. That plus the Alliance line of spells should give you a nice increase to your faction.

Ogre Illusion should give enchanters FSI as Troll illusion gives you the regen, but then again iksar illusion doesnt.

[Worry]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, that Ragebringer argument is silly. Good thing I didn't make that argument[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What I said was most races are human size. Changing from human size to a human sized skeleton does nothing. Big races have plenty of options to shrink themselves as well. The only time where Skeleton Illusion can play a decent role for size changing is small races (going from gnome size to human size, for example). However, the need for that situation is not very common, and many small race classes have other options to deal with this. Most zones that have this problem can be levitated in. ToV was specifically mentioned, since levitate doesn't work in there. However, Gnomes/Halflings/Dwarfs are rarely doing things in ToV that require absolute speed when going over large steps. In these cases, other raid members can help you out. If you are someone who is a dedicated raid player AND a small race, AoN may indeed be worth it for you. That doesn't change the idea that is is overhyped and overpriced for most players[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Big paragraph to say very little, your argument is the price of the item is overpriced because a piece of what makes it useful (size) is only useful to a specific few players. Just like any class-specific item (such as Ragebringer). Don't be purposely dense. You're the one speaking for "most" players, not me.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I never said this either. Of course rarity plays a role in price. That doesn't mean the item can't be considered overpriced and overhyped for what you get[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Take Rubicite Armor as an example. It isn't worth the price, and it is overhyped. That doesn't mean I am discouraging people from getting it. I think it is awesome if you have a character in full Rubicite Armor, wearing an AoN. That doesn't change those item's overall utility. The rarity is the cause for the price, not the utility.

Wait, you get at me for bringing up Ragebringer, but then you bring up Rubicite? Huh. AoN is not 200k because it's super rare, it's that in addition to many many other things outlined in this thread and even in some of your posts. In YOUR opinion, it is overpriced and overyhyped. But it's likely you've never even had one.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I never made any of these arguments either. Not sure where you are getting this from. I never said you need AoN to play. I simply said the price of AoN isn't worth what you get. It is much easier to just fix your faction on most class/race combinations, instead of farming 200-300k for an item that does some faction adjustment for you. You could fix your faction on multiple characters before you reach 200-300k, unless you are very lucky on high value item drops.

You sure do like to make major implications in your argument, only to backtrack when called out on it and claim "I didn't say that!!". More power to you though. Once again, this is all YOUR opinion. I'm simply outlining how useful it is for SOME race class combinations. And on top of that, it's extremely rare. And on top of that some more, it's also a nifty fashion item. Just because the actual uses aren't worth it to you, doesn't mean it's overpriced and overhyped. Hell, it's likely the majority of the server doesn't even know about it's faction boosts nor the hitbox change so how in the hell can it be overhyped? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

200k is still overpriced for what you get[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

LOL... yes.. once again, in your opinion.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not discouraging people from getting AoN, or any other rare item whose value is dictated more by price than utility. I am simply saying AoN really isn't that great of an item, when you look at what it gives you, and when you look at what it takes to acquire it.

Almost any utility item on the server is only useful for a few select classes. Once again, this is YOUR opinion and you're trying to speak for the server. I'm sure you'll get one one of these days [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[questever]

This thread is spicy

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Worry [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Big paragraph to say very little, your argument is the price of the item is overpriced because a piece of what makes it useful (size) is only useful to a specific few players. Just like any class-specific item (such as Ragebringer). Don't be purposely dense. You're the one speaking for "most" players, not me.

Wait, you get at me for bringing up Ragebringer, but then you bring up Rubicite? Huh. AoN is not 200k because it's super rare, it's that in addition to many many other things outlined in this thread and even in some of your posts. In YOUR opinion, it is overpriced and overyhyped. But it's likely you've never even had one.

You keep using a false equivalency here. I am not sure why you think Ragebringer and AoN are comparable. Let me try to simplify further.

1. Ragebringer has great utility for rogues. It is a good item, even if only one class can use it. It is certainly worth the cost.

2. AoN has little utility for all classes/races. I was simply pointing out some class/race combinations can get a bit more utility out of it due to the "unshrinking" effect. Honestly though, that isn't a very big deal in most cases. For faction, it is much easier to fix faction than getting 200-300k. You could easily fix the faction of multiple characters before you farmed 200-300k for one character in most cases, unless you are very lucky with high value drops. Even DKP wise it is still a fairly high cost item, which means you are wasting quite a bit of DKP on an item with comparatively little value when looking at other raid loot.

3. AoN is closer to Rubicite Armor in terms of Cost vs. Utility. AoN has a high cost and low utility, which makes it much closer to Rubicite Armor. AoN is also fairly rare, which keeps it's cost up. It is one of the rarer drops off of Fear Golems, and there are certainly people who have AoN's that quit playing. I agree AoN has more utility than Rubicite, but it isn't a huge leap. That is why your Ragebringer argument doesn't make sense, since AoN isn't anywhere near Ragebringer in terms of utility.

4. I never said people shouldn't get an AoN lol, or that you are bad for having one. I was just responding to the idea that losing FSI during skeleton form is a big deal for Shamans and Shadowknights. It really isn't, since there is no benefit to being in Skeleton Form in combat. The greatest utility AoN has is faction adjustment, which isn't combat related. The only exception to this is https://wiki.project1999.com/Soul_Defiler , because the Skeleton Form also gives you mana regeneration. But that isn't AoN.

Originally Posted by Worry [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You sure do like to make major implications in your argument, only to backtrack when called out on it and claim "I didn't say that!!". More power to you though. Once again, this is all YOUR opinion. I'm simply outlining how useful it is for SOME race class combinations. And on top of that, it's extremely rare. And on top of that some more, it's also a nifty fashion item. Just because the actual uses aren't worth it to you, doesn't mean it's overpriced and overhyped. Hell, it's likely the majority of the server doesn't even know about it's faction boosts nor the hitbox change so how in the hell can it be overhyped? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not backtracking. I am simply pointing out you are arguing with yourself by claiming I made an argument I did not.

I never claimed people shouldn't spend money on items if they want it. More power to you. That still doesn't make the item great, just because it is expensive[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Worry [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

LOL... yes.. once again, in your opinion.

200-300k is a lot of money for most people. I am not sure why you are arguing this.

Originally Posted by Worry [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Almost any utility item on the server is only useful for a few select classes. Once again, this is YOUR opinion and you're trying to speak for the server. I'm sure you'll get one one of these days [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, you seem to confuse good utility items with bad utility items. AoN is not equal to a Fungi Tunic, Ragebringer, etc. AoN has a very niche utility, and it's cost is worth way more than the utility.

I honestly do not want an AoN, and I have had quite a few opportunities to get one. I understand how little value it brings to the table, compared to it's cost in Platinum or DKP.

If you want an AoN, that is completely fine. One of Everquest's incentives is acquiring rare items that most people only get to dream about. But cool factor is not equal to utility.

[Worry]

You've convinced me, AON's are for chumps! Down with the scam!

[questever]

who's paying 300k for AoN? They barely sell at 200k

[Dreenk317]

Having duoed heavily with an AoN equipped ogre shaman. I can confirm, that on that on that class/race combo, it prolly has the least utility. Whenever I asked them they said they used it only for the cool factor. However, that being said. I played iksar, I would borrow it all the time for faction and pulling purposes. I have ground faction. The AoN is faster. With one click im NOT kos in so many places. When i pull multiple mobs and need one rooted, I can flop and am damn near impossible to accidently target with said root, which saves time and mana. When I've been in groups with multiple chars that look damn near the same. But one serves a more important purpose, such as main tank, or puller, you can pass it around and illusion the unimportant ones. Making it easier to get that clutch target swap for the heal, etc. There are practically endless uses to an AoN, just have to be creative.