A Shady Goblin (Ring Roll) in Warsilk Woods

[Senescant]

Ok, to appease everyone. I'm proposing we try something new for a week. Monday through Friday (US Eastern Time, based on assumed window start of 21h after turn in) will be clicks while Saturday and Sunday can be pre-rolls (casuals are usually busy neckbearding shit like jobs mon-fri). Or maybe switch it, but many people have let me know they're still in favor of clicking and most people that are in favor of rolling would rather preroll.

This allows the neckbeardiest of the neckbeards to 'compete' and allows the most casuals of casuals to pop in and roll.

Thoughts?

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Senescant [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok, to appease everyone. I'm proposing we try something new for a week. Monday through Friday (US Eastern Time, based on assumed window start of 21h after turn in) will be clicks while Saturday and Sunday can be pre-rolls (casuals are usually busy neckbearding shit like jobs mon-fri). Or maybe switch it, but many people have let me know they're still in favor of clicking and most people that are in favor of rolling would rather preroll.

This allows the neckbeardiest of the neckbeards to 'compete' and allows the most casuals of casuals to pop in and roll.

Thoughts?

With all due respect for your efforts to try and make all the people happy all the time (both with this and with getting the agreement established in the first place), I think that is a terrible idea.

It's like I keep saying: it's hard enough getting everyone to agree to the system we already have. Let's not keep trying to make it fancy, let's stick with what has worked so far (both here and with Scout): a simple roll within seconds of a spawn.

Plus we certainly don't need to carve out exceptions in the agreement for the kind of people who won't respect agreements in the first place. Those people are losing more and more power with every roll, because each successful roll brings us closer to an established player agreement in the eyes of the staff (if that hasn't happened already). The next time someone thinks they can cut in line in front of 20 people and just turn-in (which hasn't even happened yet and may never even happen), that person will likely get banned, and then we'll never have to cater to those idiots ever again.

Everyone with a brain wants a fair system. Clicks are unfair. Rolls suck, everyone agrees, but they are the clear least worst/most fair option (until the staff implements an unclassic solution for this at least, and don't hold your breath waiting for that). We have that least worst option established right now. It got established because it was simple: it's the closest thing to having no rules and being a clickfest, without actually being a clickfest.

Let's not ruin a good thing by trying to complicate it, just to appease a couple anti-social losers who would prefer an unfair system they can exploit (eg. with autofire) to a fair system that gives everyone an equal chance.

Originally Posted by Para99 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Intentional not classic variance is unfortunate. People knowing more about it applies to every aspect of such an old game. Plus the quest has plenty of classic bottlenecks. It's not like this is a Scout-like quest that can be done start to finish in 30 mins.

In another thread Nilbog said he wasn't aware the variance was unclassic, and that he'd fix it if it was. Several people then chimed in with evidence, so there is hope for a fix.

[Senescant]

I would say that more than 30-40% of the people at yesterdays rolled expressed their preference to click to me. And I would say that many people who have supported the roll over clicking would rather pre-roll instead of sit around and roll on pop. Also several people who are on each side have interpreted what Cylock meant when he quoted Diamond to mean many different things. So its a balance of trying to keep people happy and trying to ensure that madness doesn't overtake it. Right now I'd say very few are happy with it.

I'm hoping that with everyone getting the opportunity they want, even if its not every day that people will be content.

I'm not as worried about autofire as much. The quest will be relevant until Luclin is released for p99...so if a few people cheat the system that way they'll be out of the way in a relatively small amount of time.

And yes, a fix for the unclassic variance would be amazing.

We'll see what happens...

[polishanarchy]

Thought the whole point of this thread was to avoid clickfests. Roll has been working so far...

[Bbeta]

Angry is confirmed a huge variance. I ended up rolling on it with people. The list idea fell through pretty hard. Gl winners of shady because Angry is a motherfucker

[Bbeta]

14 hour window hasn't been confirmed, but I can confirm its at least 10 hours.

[Senescant]

Originally Posted by polishanarchy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thought the whole point of this thread was to avoid clickfests. Roll has been working so far...

The problem is keeping an agreement when 1/3 of the people don't agree. If someone were to come along make it a rule or something....

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Senescant [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem is keeping an agreement when 1/3 of the people don't agree. If someone were to come along make it a rule or something....

Every Shady that has ever existed on P99 except the first two have been rolled on successfully. Each time something like twenty people all agreed, and not a single person violated the roll. This has been going on, successfully for several days now. If there was any question of whether a player agreement existed before, it very clearly exists now.

And I just flat out don't buy this 1/3 number. I've been at every roll, and there's been one only person consistently wanting to roll(fixed)click (Siryado). At some rolls there's been maybe one or two (but not always even that) people threatening to join Siryado. Even so, both Siryado and those people have rolled with everyone else, every single time.

It makes absolutely no sense to change a 100% successful and (again, every sane person agrees) fair system just to appeal to Siryado and the handful of people who either want to cheat with Autofire, or are too stupid to realize they will lose to Autofire cheaters. It wouldn't make sense if there was no risk, and there's a HUGE risk that any change will break this very delicate balance we've established.

So please, you and others have worked very hard to get this roll established. Stop trying to make it fancy with special times, special days, or special anything. It needs to be just one step more complicated than a clickfest: that's the only way it's managed to succeed as much as it has.

[Senescant]

I can recall 7 names off the top of my head from yesterdays roll that communicated to me their opposition to the roll. Not all of them monks :P As Cylock pointed out, not everyone is on the forums making their opinion. But also agreeing to roll and agreement that it should be a roll are two different things.

Also I think you meant Click in your 2nd paragraph.

But we'll see what happens. Best case the variance is quickly fixed and we can have a set roll, because I think part of the reason that people aren't happy is to have to poopsock for several hours and give people who aren't paying attention a few seconds to tab back and roll.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Senescant [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can recall 7 names off the top of my head from yesterdays roll that communicated to me their opposition to the roll. Not all of them monks :P As Cylock pointed out, not everyone is on the forums making their opinion. But also agreeing to roll and agreement that it should be a roll are two different things.

Also I think you meant Click in your 2nd paragraph.

But we'll see what happens. Best case the variance is quickly fixed and we can have a set roll, because I think part of the reason that people aren't happy is to have to poopsock for several hours and give people who aren't paying attention a few seconds to tab back and roll.

I think you're confusing "people casually bitching about not wanting to have to roll with 20 other people" for "people seriously wanting to not roll and instead give Shady to anyone willing to use Autofire". Obviously our experiences are different, but I just have not seen even close to a 1/3rd of people in game or here in the forum seriously wanting a clickfest.

Also, which Cylock quote are you talking about? Looking at Cylock's recent posts I don't see anything like that at all. Not the one from this thread I assume?

Originally Posted by Cylock [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You’re correct ...

about a year ago I asked Nilbog to randomize the spawn(s) to eliminate this issue. Yes it isn’t classic, but neither is having tons of people with previous knowledge about the quest.

Because that doesn't say anything about the forum, opinions, agreements, or anything else we're talking about. Also, Nilbog sort of undercut that entire quote by saying he intends for Shady to be classic.

Originally Posted by nilbog [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's hard to remember the day I wrote this quest, almost a year and a half ago, much less the details.

Willing to fix it if it's wrong. I'm not sure how to interpret the last 2 posts in this thread if someone wants to translate.

Is it possible you were misattributing this post I made earlier in the thread for Cyclock? It does talk about how we can't just rely on the forum to set things ...

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Full disclosure: I'm 100% pro-roll. But if you really want this to happen, history shows that this thread is pointless. No forum poll (what this is, more or less) has every done anything in-game in the entire history of this project (or at least not as long as I've been here).

Scout roll did not happen in the forums. People proposed the idea in the forum, but it wasn't until everyone went from clicking, to some rolls, to lots of rolls, to everyone except a few freaks rolling, before the staff made it a rule.

If Rogean liked inflicting rules on the player base he would have given us rotations years ago, and saved him and the staff countless hours of wasted time. But he didn't: he's stayed neutral, "above it all", and never added rules to the server unless he had to or unless the players created a consensus.

I mean who knows: Rogean is human and he could have a change of heart tomorrow. But if he acts the same way he's acted for the past decade, and I think he will, the only way to make a roll happen is in-game. The only thing posting here can possibly do is push people to roll in-game, but it's that rolling, not the posting, that will get us a rule.

But to be clear, my whole point there was that we needed to do exactly what we did: get the players, in-game, to agree to a roll, consistently for more than just one day.