Shadowknight, what race is best?

[Vadd]

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok so he's asking ogre, iksar or troll and he wants the best race (which is obviously why he's narrowed it down to these 3).

Looks like he is looking for some min max and why.

Ogre, case closed.

Ogre wins at HP.

Ogre has frontal stun resist, aka more time to build/hold agro + less spell interruptions.

Ogre receives the smallest racial exp penalty when compared to Troll and Iksar.

Trolls do look cool as fuck.

Iksars look like SHIT.

I'm an Ogre myself, call me biased....

[A1551]

So two of my friends in game have been threatening to roll SK's -- one ended up going DE and the other Ogre. Reading this thread got me interested in actually putting some numbers to the different choices. I admittedly pushed both to anything not a fatty b/c the idea of duoing with their 61-68% exp penalty makes me physically ill.

Using a "preview" maeglo and plugging in the base stats for a DE and Ogre at level 60, fully ungeared gave the following (note I don't have a clue how accurate they are)

Ogre: 142 Stamina / 70 int, and also agi bumped to 75 to avoid penalty:
2266HP, 1215 mana
Dark Elf: 90 Sta, 109 Int
2033HP, 1451 mana

So basically the DE loses 233 hp at level 60 but gains 236 mana -- almost literally a 1 for 1 trade. I don't play an SK so have no idea how useful one is vs. the other.

The Ogre also has a substantial Str bonus -- 140 vs 70. I know Str doesn't do a whole lot point for point but I assume 70 points is pretty significant. Of course SK DPS is terrible anyway and really not why they exist!

Finally the DE picks up +15 agility and +5 dex vs ogre....but who cares.

Not being fat is a big convenience, and the DE definitely looks way cooler. Racial hide on DE is not useless (for afk medding etc.) although not a huge deal since SK's get FD anyway. Slam could be a big deal, although I feel like most SK's I see are using a shield / 1 hander, and there's always ghetto bashing. Now frontal stun immunity -- This is the only place I can see where being the ogre might really let an SK be better at their job, as not being stunned while casting spells to gain aggro could mean holding aggro better.

Based on all this I think it proves the oft repeated "there is no wrong answer play what you like" statement. Pure powergaming perspective the ogre is definitely "better" but surely not 21% better -- from a group looking for a tanks perspective a DE SK is probably the better choice. If the group has no shaman and is in an old world dungeon, that "better" ogre SK might literally be useless to them. I guess it comes down to the player's tolerance for grinding -- is leveling 21-28% slower and not fitting through old world architecture for a few advantages a fair trade?

For me I'd say no -- If I need a tank I know the small race SK will do just fine and suck up less exp. But that is based on my own personal valuation of the extra exp penalty. I certainly understand the draw to pick the bigass fatty with twice the strength etc.

*Final note -- I compared ogre and DE because that's what my friends were considering, but for all intensive purposes the comparison is big race vs small race.

[Splorf22]

1. You need to join the A-team Propo.

2. I think its not so much aggro lost from the bashes as FD splits. When you are trying to split 3-4 mobs thats when the stun immunity is nice.

3. I don't think max mana pool matters for SKs nearly as much as max hp.

Of course, as you said its not a huge deal.

[A1551]

Haha Splorf -- you guys are awesome so I'll take that as a big compliment, very happy with AG tho!

You're right about the FD splits, it's not something I had considered and is something that'd probably have a noticeable impact on a groups exp rate if the SK is pulling and breaking a lotta spawns. Still -- I always remember being in unrest or mistmoore and having noone to pull because the SK was a fatty and couldnt fit through the castle door without getting beat to death. Not really an issue in kunark, or if the SK can afford shrink pots.

[Grimmly Fireforge]

Nice post Propo, but racial exp penalty isn't shared with groupmates. Only the class penalty.

[Vellatri]

I'm pretty sure a 52 stamina difference will amount to 260hp at level 60 because knights get 5hp/sta at level 60. I could be wrong, but I wouldn't trust Magelo to get it right either. Anyone know the exact formula for SK mana/int? Is it .2 mana/int/level?

There's no such thing as "complete mana heal" so a large HP pool is more important for combat. High intelligence does have the added benefit of faster tradeskilling, though, which I make use of.

I would love the frontal stun immunity. For tanking in general, that would greatly help in managing aggro whether it be from more freedom to move or spellcasting. Ogres can still get interrupted due to melee push, though.

That being said, I play a Dark Elf and love it. Yes, I'm aware of the "all points into stamina" argument, but I did 10/10 on str/sta. If I was min/maxing, I'd be an ogre.

[Beaniron]

I prefer Dark Elf just because of the sheer level of evil such a class/race combo emits (and more armor choices), but I would say Troll is your best choice. Slam, higher regen, and more friendly caster stats than Ogres. Ogres DO have frontal stun immunity which goes a LONG way though.

Besides, I have a problem with Ogres being Shadowknights. Ogres aren't really malicious or sinister anyway, so I don't understand why they're allowed to be SK's. They're not "evil" in nature, they're just stupid.

[Vellatri]

Just a small correction: ogres actually have 7 more wisdom and 8 more intelligence than trolls.

Ogres also have skulls on their plate, which I'll admit is pretty cool. My dark elf female has a small skull on her breastplate, but I'm not sure about males. Regardless, I completely agree that dark elves just scream evil.

[A1551]

Originally Posted by Grimmly Fireforge [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nice post Propo, but racial exp penalty isn't shared with groupmates. Only the class penalty.

To my knowledge this is incorrect. I will concede the possibility I am wrong and I'd like to hear why you think that. The exp penalty works by making any given race and class combination require more experience to attain the same level compared to normal. The race and class penalty combine as multipliers in a formula that spits out a higher exp need to level -- pretty straight forward.

Likewise, when you group and kill something, the game divides up the experience based on the total experience each player has attained. So if player A has 200 xp and player B has 100, player A essentially gets 2/3rds of the experience awarded.

So from a practical perspective, this means an ogre SK will take a greater share of the exp pie than a DE SK of the same level, who will likewise take more exp than a human cleric of the same level, because the ogre SK will have a lot more total experience. Based on this it really doesn't make any sense to think the racial penalty is not shared by groups. This would be easy to prove or disprove experimentally using a couple of level ones, but unless you have some strong evidence to support that racial penalties aren't shared I'd say its a foregone conclusion.

My reference: http://wiki.project1999.org/Game_Mec...perience_Works

[gotrocks]

Fairly sure race/class penalty combines in a group.

I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary, but if there is some, i'd be very interested in seeing it.