When are they Implementing the Charm Nerf?

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you're like the mick west of p99 loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

https://twitter.com/MickWest/status/...qklrCC433vcYdw

Never heard of him, but he seems like a good dude, and I am a skeptic and a programmer (plus I make lots of typos), so I'll take that as a compliment [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Fammaden]

Loramin continually fails to consider the bigger elephant in the room than "something about the code is different", the hardware and bandwith was so inferior and bogged down that charming was a deathwish. Lagspikes were a complete fact of life for nearly everyone. Servers weren't as inherently stable and reliable themselves. Your ISP wasn't as stable and reliable.

Most people's machines struggled to run the graphics and had shit ping by even the worst P99 standards, reacting to a charm break even without weapons and haste would be swift oblivion and your groups deaths likely next. Players were incredibly risk averse and demanded the same of their party.

Then along came Luclin >>> PoP and everyone was forced to upgrade their PC's more, and better broadband became more the norm across the country. Next thing you know charming was on the menu as well as the advent of widespread bard swarming.

GINA is also a massive advantage we didn't have then. Even if channeling or some other aspect of P99 is a bit overpowered that's not the biggest reason for the dearth of charm back in the old days.

[Troxx]

If I had a nickel for every time I died to a lag spike while not playing a charming enchanter while on dial up in 2000 …

Dems be a lot of nickels.

[Elizondo]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

100% agree, except I've dug into classic sources and Enchanters absolutely did charm back in classic ... they were just the very clear minority. Plenty of others tried charming, but found that it was too risky, and grouping was much faster XP.

They didn't charm back then the way they do now. You don't keep the pet charmed for long when reverse charming. Charming (the few who did) was done to keep the pet as long as possible until it broke then everyone beat it down.

Strategies like reverse charming, stacking CHA (INT is an afterthought for chanters on P99) carrying around -MR gear, runing pet and slowing your target, clumping/conga lines ect. were all play styles developed by players on P99

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

See, this is where I get lost. If this was the same game as back in '99 it'd be impossible to "change how the class is played". Literally more than ten times as many Enchanters played on live as do here. It makes zero logical sense that ten times as many players wouldn't figure out how to play the class, but a few geniuses at P99 would.

Not everyone approaches the game the same way and utilizes the tools the exact same way. I've already explained how players on P99 maximized the class strengths by creating tactics that maximizes charm's effectiveness. You're giving way too much credit to people that played back then. Most were barely average players who mostly socialized in the game. 90% of the P99 population are hardcore players who have been playing the game for 20 years. The skill gap is a canyon.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The "Occam's razor" (ie. simplest) answer isn't that 1/10th of the players magically learned how to play better than 10x that number on live, playing for two years ... it's that the emulator's rules changed from live. And again, no other class magically changed how it's played the way Enchanters (and to a lesser extent other charm classes) have.

Completely disagree. Chanters sacrifice a lot of their potential mana pool to charm and most of their sanity hot swapping spells during routine fights. It's simply a different play style maximizing mechanics that have always been there but not thoroughly explored like they been on P99

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Elizondo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They didn't charm back then the way they do now. You don't keep the pet charmed for long when reverse charming. Charming (the few who did) was done to keep the pet as long as possible until it broke then everyone beat it down.

Dec 20th 2:51 PM 2001:

Originally Posted by some guy on Allakhazam

If you charm a yellow con and fight a just-red con, you can debuff the mob (I recommend not buffing your pet) and ensure the mob dies with your pet nearly dead (nuke if necessary). Then you can invis and take your pet down with 1 nuke and reap double xp.

But all means, keep telling me how P99 invented the Enchanter class [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

(And BTW, I am a terrible classic researcher: I can't touch Rygar or Dolalin with a ten foot pole ... and I found that in < 10 min. If Caster's Realm still had much of an archive left, I probably could have found it it in 2 min.)

[Vivitron]

Originally Posted by Live enchanter

If you charm a yellow con and fight a just-red con, you can debuff the mob (I recommend not buffing your pet) and ensure the mob dies with your pet nearly dead (nuke if necessary). Then you can invis and take your pet down with 1 nuke and reap double xp.

Haha, that's almost exactly what I tried on my level 12 enchanter on live. I didn't have a gcd either so I tried to deal with charm breaks by color flux, then *running during gcd* to try to make enough time to recast a charm without getting interrupted. I knew about gcd reset but not about cheap insta clicks. (Edit: or if I knew about cheap insta clicks I didn't sufficiently value them to track one down for such a low level alt, it's been a while.)

Of course, it didn't take many attempts at charming yellow/red mobs especially without an sow before I gave up. That strategy was a failure on live and it would be a failure on p99 too; you get resisted then they kill you.

Here, though, I had Tecmos' videos to teach me a mindset of minimizing risk while charming instead of biting off more than I could chew, and the cultural knowledge that it would pay off if I pushed on learning & optimizing for it, e.g. getting a gcd item and hp gear.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Haha, that's almost exactly what I tried on my level 12 enchanter on live. I didn't have a gcd either so I tried to deal with charm breaks by color flux, then *running during gcd* to try to make enough time to recast a charm without getting interrupted. I knew about gcd reset but not about cheap insta clicks. (Edit: or if I knew about cheap insta clicks I didn't sufficiently value them to track one down for such a low level alt, it's been a while.)

Of course, it didn't take many attempts at charming yellow/red mobs especially without an sow before I gave up. That strategy was a failure on live and it would be a failure on p99 too; you get resisted then they kill you.

Here, though, I had Tecmos' videos to teach me a mindset of minimizing risk while charming instead of biting off more than I could chew, and the cultural knowledge that it would pay off if I pushed on learning & optimizing for it, e.g. getting a gcd item and hp gear.

GCD reset is nice, but not at all necessary to charm fight. As for SoW, the guy I was quoting mentions the following (I just left it out as it wasn't relevant):

- Save up for tboots if you don't have jboots (soloing is soloing right?)

and:

- Practice charm soloing in wide open places on non-sow mobs, until you get your timing vs distance down.

Also (contrary to the common claim here that Live Enchanters didn't know about Charisma):

- Get the cha gear up there to 185-200 (probly done that already for mez)

And this is just one random poster; if I could find an archive of the Enchanters forum we'd undoubtedly find a wealth of info. And as for it being a "failed strategy" ... it seemed to work out pretty well for him (he wrote a nice long post about it, clearly from experience).

Look, again, I'm not discounting that we have more knowledge here. 100%, we agree on that. But the same thing is true of every class ... and yet we don't have any other class played fundamentally differently here (except when we've had clearly unclassic things, like Bards AoEing 100 mobs, or Warriors binding wounds in combat).

[Vivitron]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also (contrary to the common claim here that Live Enchanters didn't know about Charisma):

The topic of this thread is that our best evidence suggests cha didn't affect charm durations on live (and the level based resist adjustments worked slightly differently), and we're expecting that to be fixed, right? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Jibartik]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Never heard of him, but he seems like a good dude, and I am a skeptic and a programmer (plus I make lots of typos), so I'll take that as a compliment [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

everything needs its mick west - and he's a good dude.

but he is known for ignoring peoples accounts in favor of his analysis [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[PatChapp]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

GCD reset is nice, but not at all necessary to charm fight. As for SoW, the guy I was quoting mentions the following (I just left it out as it wasn't relevant):



and:



Also (contrary to the common claim here that Live Enchanters didn't know about Charisma):



And this is just one random poster; if I could find an archive of the Enchanters forum we'd undoubtedly find a wealth of info. And as for it being a "failed strategy" ... it seemed to work out pretty well for him (he wrote a nice long post about it, clearly from experience).

Look, again, I'm not discounting that we have more knowledge here. 100%, we agree on that. But the same thing is true of every class ... and yet we don't have any other class played fundamentally differently here (except when we've had clearly unclassic things, like Bards AoEing 100 mobs, or Warriors binding wounds in combat).

I mean it sure sounds like some people knew how to charm and mitigate the risk in classic, per your own findings.
It seems like your asking for the class to be changed,to change players. Player knowledge base cannot be changed, people on p99 like to push things to their limits.
I would love to go back to eq when noone knew anything,but it's not realistic with 20+ years of knowledge readily available