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  #191  
Old 08-07-2022, 06:15 PM
loramin loramin is offline
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Originally Posted by PatChapp [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I mean it sure sounds like some people knew how to charm and mitigate the risk in classic, per your own findings.
It seems like your asking for the class to be changed,to change players. Player knowledge base cannot be changed, people on p99 like to push things to their limits.
I would love to go back to eq when noone knew anything,but it's not realistic with 20+ years of knowledge readily available
Yes, as I keep repeating, they did know how to charm! And yet ... most Enchanters grouped. If you played on live (and played in groups), you know this to be true, and that it was also true for tanks and clerics, which formed the "holy trinity" of grouping back then.

Now, one can argue about minutiae, eg. "they weren't aware of GCD resets, that's why they didn't charm", but I find that a weak argument. GCD resets don't make or break charming, they just make it a little more convenient.

So again, I'm not arguing classic players never charmed. What I'm arguing is, charm was more risky in classic, and as a result far fewer charmed. The fact that so many here charm, and so few charmed on live (or, again, that the Enchanter class is played differently here ... while every other class is played the same) is evidence our emulator isn't as risky as the original game was.
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  #192  
Old 08-07-2022, 06:28 PM
Jibartik Jibartik is offline
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Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
So again, I'm not arguing classic players never charmed. What I'm arguing is, charm was more risky in classic, and as a result far fewer charmed. The fact that so many here charm, and so few charmed on live (or, again, that the Enchanter class is played differently here ... while every other class is played the same) is evidence our emulator isn't as risky as the original game was.
Your conclusion is sound, but your logic is flawed.

Again, this theory of yours that it was different then than now, does not explain that well after three years of p99 classic, and well into 3 years of kunark, is when players started charming on p99

it was not widly done, there were not enchanters on every account, it was tecmos, me and triangles for a long time and like tecmos says he learned everythign from triangles, we all learned from tecmos.

The reason people didnt charm back o nlive, was because we were on the moon in 2.8 years after launch - they were learning how to raid.

Edit: I mean lets be fair here: straight up nobody soloing the creatures we solo on this server with shamans during live velious, so what is torp totally fake?
Last edited by Jibartik; 08-07-2022 at 06:31 PM..
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  #193  
Old 08-07-2022, 06:28 PM
loramin loramin is offline
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Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
The topic of this thread is that our best evidence suggests cha didn't affect charm durations on live (and the level based resist adjustments worked slightly differently), and we're expecting that to be fixed, right? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
If there's evidence, I believe it [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] But there's also clearly evidence that people in classic thought it helped (people like the guy I quoted). Honestly, I truly don't know what's "wrong" here specifically. Smarter people than me have suggested Charisma, channeling, or various other factors.

All I know is that a Street Fighter II emulator where no one wants to Dragon Punch with Ryu is not a good emulator. You don't have to know anything about how damage works in Street Fighter II to know that: if you played the arcade game back in the day, you know Ryu players want to Dragon Punch.

Similarly here, if every class plays like they did in '99 ... except for one class that doesn't ... something smells funny.
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  #194  
Old 08-07-2022, 06:30 PM
loramin loramin is offline
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Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Your conclusion is sound, but your logic is flawed.

Again, this theory of yours that it was different then than now, does not explain that well after three years of p99 classic, and well into 3 years of kunark, is when players started charming on p99

it was not widly done, there were not enchanters on every account, it was tecmos, me and triangles for a long time and like tecmos says he learned everythign from triangles, we all learned from tecmos.

The reason people didnt charm back o nlive, was because we were on the moon in 2.8 years after launch - they were learning how to raid.
So why just Enchanters? If our knowledge gap vs. live is so huge, why don't Necromancers, or Warriors, or any other class play fundamentally differently here then?

Warriors in '99 were a group-dominant class. Here they are group-dominant.

Necromancers in '99 were a solo-dominant class. Here they are solo-dominant.

You can repeat this pattern for every class in the game ... except Enchanters.
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  #195  
Old 08-07-2022, 06:33 PM
Jibartik Jibartik is offline
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So why just Enchanters? If our knowledge gap vs. live is so huge, why don't Necromancers, or Warriors, or any other class play fundamentally differently here then?
They do!

They do by a large margine!

Aint nobody soloing tranix and ragefire with any class on live before velious!
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  #196  
Old 08-07-2022, 06:36 PM
loramin loramin is offline
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Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
They do!

They do by a large margine!

Aint nobody soloing tranix and ragefire with any class on live before velious!
Again, extreme cases like someone soloing something (at the very end of the game), that they couldn't solo on live, is very different from core aspects of the game (from 1-60) not being the same. Several classes can do cool/unclassic stuff at the end, but no one here except Enchanters plays fundamentally differently from how they did in '99, because we have a very good emulator, which emulates almost everything from '99 very well.

For every other class, P99 is like EQ '99. It's just Enchanters that fundamentally aren't like they were in '99:

Quote:
Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Warriors in '99 were a group-dominant class. Here they are group-dominant.

Necromancers in '99 were a solo-dominant class. Here they are solo-dominant.

You can repeat this pattern for every class in the game ... except Enchanters.
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  #197  
Old 08-07-2022, 06:58 PM
Jibartik Jibartik is offline
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I disagree, I think the way p99 players play is fundamentally different than the way people did on live even up to p99s launch let alone compared to live.

Lets take a look at the frog king for example. This mob is soloable, even if you nerfed charm like crazy because the start just involves you suiciding mobs into each other and one easy fight after that.

So why was it not known until well into p99? Why didn't someone figure this out? I will tell you why: because nobody in their right mind 9 months after the launch of everquesrt would be like, "I'm gonna go solo the king!" That's insane.

The sound of a zombie made me pee my pants back then. Imagine the idea of getting killed alone at the bottom of a dungeon. F that you'd assume you may as well be dead irl before you're gonna get that corpse back.

we just play more confidently, when we have all these strategy guides, youtube videos, and confident playerbase.

You meet anyone now and its like, lets talk about all the most insane meta shit we know about EQ!

back then it was like, "WOW i aint ever seen nuffin like dis befurrrr!"

If there was one spell I am dubious of being less pwoerful it'd be the Lull lines, I aint ever seen anyone use those to any value on live, but I think that was because we were D-U-M-B dumb! (newbies)
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  #198  
Old 08-07-2022, 07:03 PM
loramin loramin is offline
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Look, we all agree: Blue has been up and at Kunark for nearly a decade longer than Live was (and half a decade or so vs. Velious). As a result, we have some differences from live.

But, all those differences can be explained by the extra time. Doing crazy solos at max level, with gear live people never had time to get? That's totally explained by our server unclassically running longer.

On the other hand, Enchanters deciding, from their earliest levels, "solo charming is way easier and faster XP than joining a group"? Look, if I gave you a hundred years, Rogues would still be a grouping class: even a century of unclassic time won't change that fact, because it has nothing to do with player knowledge, and everything to do with how the game works.
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  #199  
Old 08-07-2022, 07:03 PM
Jibartik Jibartik is offline
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Then why were they not doing it day one of the server launch, loramin?

Why was it not until the advent of tecmos's youtues did the number of enchanters begin to appear?

Why were we learning how to do it for years together on p99?

Why are shamans not buff bots on p99?
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  #200  
Old 08-07-2022, 07:12 PM
loramin loramin is offline
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Shaman weren't buff bots in '01 either: I played one [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As for Tecmos ... well first off, I wasn't around for the earliest days of P99, so I can't say anything with certainty. But I do know lots of stuff wasn't classic in the early days here. Forget about combat bind wounds: they had Whirl Til You Hurl letting you kill mobs 20 levels higher and crap like that back then.

So, it seems to me that "stuff was crazy in the early days of our emulator" just shows our dev team was still working on said server in those days. But my point is, our "complete" (or at least, ten-plus-years-closer) emulator emulates every class in the game perfectly (when it comes to the fundamentals; again not talking about crazy high-end solos) ... except Enchanters.
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