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  #21  
Old 10-21-2020, 08:47 AM
Fammaden Fammaden is online now
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Originally Posted by kaizersoze [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
This work for everyone? :P
I might be way off base and I'm at risk of beating a dead horse both here and in RnF now, but my impression is that we are causing far more headaches in NToV and very specifically on Vulak than anywhere else. Anything that doesn't solve this absurd and horrible meta in NToV doesn't really address the biggest problem we are facing IMO.

Rotate the stuff you mentioned too, it all makes sense to rotate, in fact those encounters make the most sense to rotate. But if there's one other place in the game that needs some compromise and changes in the way raiding works its the inner ring.
  #22  
Old 10-21-2020, 08:50 AM
kaizersoze kaizersoze is offline
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Originally Posted by Fammaden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I might be way off base and I'm at risk of beating a dead horse both here and in RnF now, but my impression is that we are causing far more headaches in NToV and very specifically on Vulak than anywhere else. Anything that doesn't solve this absurd and horrible meta in NToV doesn't really address the biggest problem we are facing IMO.

Rotate the stuff you mentioned too, it all makes sense to rotate, in fact those encounters make the most sense to rotate. But if there's one other place in the game that needs some compromise and changes in the way raiding works its the inner ring.
I attempted to leave some competitive aspects in as a compromise to full blown rotation since some people live and die for the competition. I think it's pretty fair to both parties and makes some of the shitty things like clickfest RW go away.
  #23  
Old 10-21-2020, 09:14 AM
HitsmeChanter HitsmeChanter is offline
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Originally Posted by kaizersoze [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
For places like TOV this becomes a way to make sure people are MUCH more careful with their trains, to the point they wont sit their raid force on another raid force at all most likely unless absolutely necessary. No more of this, we wait on top of them for them to clear the trash then run in stuff.

Anti leapfrogging - 20 minute lockout on FTE as soon as you feel your raid force is ready to engage in that time. Be it killing adds, figuring out kites, whatever, 20 minutes to get your shit together or lose your FTE and another guild can engage. That's the time between statue / AoW and basically all turn ins like Zordak so why not make it universal?
The problem with both of these is that trains are only really bad because of rooted dragons, we all have to claw to get as close to that target as possible then at the last second train and get an edge for loot. Solve this with an FTE race and a lockout. FTE'rs die at the end of their race, and no trains are needed.

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Originally Posted by kaizersoze [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ST- Just give one guild ST every week who can kill there and rotate it.

Tunare - If you can actually clear growth ON YOUR OWN within 10 hours, you get a rotation slot.

Ring war - Rotate if you can clear it. If you cannot start it within an hour of pop, let the next guild in line know and they can take that one, and you will be given your shot at the next one.
All of these ideas are just ideas to preserve/protect the super guilds. Kinda makes it hard for any other guilds to have a chance. If you can't get a shot at something, you can't prove that you can do it. Moreover, its hard to hold member interest to build numbers for something if you cant just compete and try for it.

As for the idea of if you cant kill it within an hour, you forfeit, that's just jockeying to get riot more mobs. Everyone knows there is only one guild on the server that can kill anything at any time of day. A rotation slot should allow for 24 hours to complete the content. If you don't think you can complete it in time and concede it within say 6 hours of pop, then you can take the next pop IMHO.

It seems to me that a lot of our problems can be resolved with FTE races. If your guild FTE's the mob you have a set amount of time to kill it. If you fail, you're out until all other present competitors have taken a shot at it, or for like 1.5 hours, whichever comes first. I think that this eliminates the need for the massive trains that honestly seem to cause a lot of our petitions.
Last edited by HitsmeChanter; 10-21-2020 at 09:18 AM..
  #24  
Old 10-21-2020, 09:16 AM
Ripqozko Ripqozko is offline
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Fte races + 3 hour lockout. Bring back 2017
  #25  
Old 10-21-2020, 09:19 AM
FatBalloon2 FatBalloon2 is offline
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Door pulls!
  #26  
Old 10-21-2020, 09:20 AM
lookitsjb lookitsjb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fammaden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Do you guys really think every petition is simply that cut and dry? There's a lot of grey areas, a lot of give and take, a lot of interpretations of the rules, a lot of misunderstandings.

This idea of punishing "wolf calling" belies an underlying belief that there's specific entities who are more guilty of frivolous petitions than others, and I truly don't believe that to be the case. Every petition can be argued by either side convincingly, this stuff isn't ever as simple as we'd like it to be and the evidence is notoriously hard to evaluate.

There's simply no objective way to say someone's acting in bad faith, most of the questionable petitions tend to be questions of intent, which is nearly impossible to determine, rather than something that you can immediately call an outright lie or bad faith petition. Additionally, with the long delays involved in the process of ruling on these things a punishment is not as significant of a deterrent. Behaviorally, its well established that punishment doesn't work for shaping when its randomly applied and the longer its delayed from the target behavior.

"You will find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view" — Obi-Wan Kenobi, Return of the Jedi.
The concept here is to indirectly force guilds to work together. A member acting in bad faith versus an accident is, in most cases, clear. And in most cases, is something that is recognized immediately. These accidents don't always need to result in concessions, however, and I feel like that's where we need to start.

If someone runs through North Door, trains wyverns, and wipes a guild, the guild leaders can work together to pause all progress until both guilds are back to their "pre train" status. However if that happens, and the guild proceeds to FTE and kill a target (leapfrogging the trained guild), they used a clear accident to benefit them and should yield a punishment (concession or whatever). If that doesn't get resolved and a petition is filed, the GMs can choose to punish the guild that trained the wyverns, or punish the guild that filed the petition. But if it gets to the point where GMs need to be involved, a ban should be the outcome for one or both guilds.

IMO; The toxicity of the raid scene is stemming from the lack of consequence for actions. More, and more, people feel slighted while raiding and are actively looking for things to call other guilds out on, because be it tiny accidents or gigantic fuck-ups; they always go to petition since the leads wont work together. At worst, if the GM rules against you, you're forced to concede 1 or 2 of the target and thats it, which ultimately yields the same consequence as if you hadn't involved the GM to begin with. So I ask; Why bother the GMs, and not own your mistakes and move on? (Your being a generic 'you'.. not pointing at any guild/person directly)

The raid rules clearly state; "if you request that another guild concede a mob, you better be 100% certain that they made an error, otherwise you may be punished harshly." Let's use the one rule that's black-and-white as the foundation for the steps moving forward.

Another black-and-white on the same topic, "Note on Rule Lawyering – I think the spirit of everything we are trying to accomplish here is pretty clear. Anyone that tries to twist the words to support and/or justify nefarious actions will not be rewarded. There will be no “technically this could be that”, or “well it doesn’t exactly say this word for word”. From this point forward we will be actively enforcing the spirit of these rules more so than the exact letter of the law. Don't expect to skirt passed a raid suspension on a loop hole or technicality."
  #27  
Old 10-21-2020, 09:21 AM
FatBalloon2 FatBalloon2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lookitsjb [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
IMO; The toxicity of the raid scene is stemming from the lack of consequence for actions.
This.
Last edited by FatBalloon2; 10-21-2020 at 09:23 AM..
  #28  
Old 10-21-2020, 09:23 AM
kjs86z kjs86z is offline
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How about not being unbearable cunts?

Also I recommend exercise, clean eating, sunshine, and sex.
  #29  
Old 10-21-2020, 09:24 AM
kaizersoze kaizersoze is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HitsmeChanter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
The problem with both of these is that trains are only really bad because of rooted dragons, we all have to claw to get as close to that target as possible then at the last second train and get an edge for loot. Solve this with an FTE race and a lockout. FTE'rs die at the end of their race, and no trains are needed.



All of these ideas are just ideas to preserve/protect the super guilds. Kinda makes it hard for any other guilds to have a chance. If you can't get a shot at something, you can't prove that you can do it. Moreover, its hard to hold member interest to build numbers for something if you cant just compete and try for it.

As for the idea of if you cant kill it within an hour, you forfeit, that's just jockeying to get riot more mobs. Everyone knows there is only one guild on the server that can kill anything at any time of day. A rotation slot should allow for 24 hours to complete the content. If you don't think you can complete it in time and concede it within say 6 hours of pop, then you can take the next pop IMHO.

It seems to me that a lot of our problems can be resolved with FTE races. If your guild FTE's the mob you have a set amount of time to kill it. If you fail, you're out until all other present competitors have taken a shot at it, or for like 1.5 hours, whichever comes first. I think that this eliminates the need for the massive trains that honestly seem to cause a lot of our petitions.
I would be fine with amendments to my suggestion to make things like RW a same day kill. Though as far as things like proving they can do Tuna (im aasssuming youre referring to that?) Maybe set aside the 4th week for an attempt. If they can do it, on their own, then add them to the rotation and make the joint raid take the week after the last guild was added.

I also never said that you just conceded the mob after the timer would expire, only that a different guild could engage. You could still go after it, but any trash you cleared would then also be out of their way as well and they could snag the next lock. However to prevent people from chain locking and not engaging, institute a strict one time limit on their first lock. No just running to the dragon, getting yellow, dancing around the engage to go lock it again later just to prevent people from engaging.

The ST zone rotation I proposed would give guilds like Kittens, who used to not be in the rotations, a slot since im 99% sure they have enough keys to compete if they really wanted to. They just sort of dont, I think.

As for the rooted dragons? Im sorry people need to actually play EQ and not just wait at the zoneline, but this is the current situation and I dont think theyre going to go back on it now.
  #30  
Old 10-21-2020, 09:28 AM
Nexii Nexii is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripqozko [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Fte races + 3 hour lockout. Bring back 2017
It was one hour. But yea it worked.

The main issue with it was a lack of server wide announce when a lockout expired. Guilds not knowing when they could legally FTE.

I imagine a bot feeding into a public Discord channel could solve that problem next time around. Guilds could be mandated to declare their FTEs there
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