most underpowered group class in the game

[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by Selene [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

not sure how mages are the worst in grouping at 60

They aren't. People be cray.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Selene [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

god the level of hate for mages that toxigen has is impressive!

not sure how mages are the worst in grouping at 60

It is not hate, it is analysis. In any asymmetrical game, there are better classes than others. No one is saying Mages can't group at 60.

The problem is Mages just bring the least to the table at 60 compared to other classes. They have very little CC, and level 60's aren't going to be using most summoned items in a group scenario. CoTH is also generally not needed in grouping. So basically they are just a DPS class, and other classes can DPS better, such as Monk or Rogue.

Sadly a Mage's toolkit is at it's best when the population on the server has little knowledge of the game. That makes their item summoning utility very useful, as people aren't very good at finding merchants or adjusting faction. The more knowledge a server gains about the game, the less utility a Mage's summoning has, which is a big chunk of their kit. And unfortunately bad pathing prevents Mage's from being able to use their pets in many situations, which is another big chunk of their kit. It is much safer to bring a DPS class controlled by a player, instead of using a Mage's pet and hoping it doesn't agro a bunch of stuff through the floor/wall.

[Selene]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is not hate, it is analysis. In any asymmetrical game, there are better classes than others. No one is saying Mages can't group at 60.

The problem is Mages just bring the least to the table at 60 compared to other classes. They have very little CC, and level 60's aren't going to be using most summoned items in a group scenario. CoTH is also generally not needed in grouping. So basically they are just a DPS class, and other classes can DPS better, such as Monk or Rogue.

Sadly a Mage's toolkit is at it's best when the population on the server has little knowledge of the game. That makes their item summoning utility very useful, as people aren't very good at finding merchants or adjusting faction. The more knowledge a server gains about the game, the less utility a Mage's summoning has, which is a big chunk of their kit. And unfortunately bad pathing prevents Mage's from being able to use their pets in many situations, which is another big chunk of their kit. It is much safer to bring a DPS class controlled by a player, instead of using a Mage's pet and hoping it doesn't agro a bunch of stuff through the floor/wall.

you make a lot of interesting and valid points about many aspects of the game and even on mages, in the other thread. but i don't think you're considering what i'm saying, so i feel like i'm repeating myself here lol

Toxigen said mages are the WORST class at 60 for grouping. A class that is in the same tier more or less as rogue or monk for sustained DPS can't possibly be in that discussion, pet pathing or not.

a mage's pet with muzzle + burnout does considerable damage (consistent too, unlike those annoying series of misses that occur with any melee class); a water pet can do a mini backstab as well, plus its proc spell. Add a 33 point damage shield, and the mana-free nukes of 333 or 600 depending on whether you have the chardok staff or the velks boots, and its clear mages are in the top tier of DPS in a group. this without even considering the spells I can cast with mana, upwards of 1k in burst damage per spell.

the pathing issue is annoying, i agree, but in most group situations the mobs are being pulled to the group, which stays at a home base. even if you do move around, its not too difficult to just reclaim + resummon as necessary (we chain summon frequently enough at the high end anyway).

besides, it's nice having a disposable tank that can distract an add if necessary and die in the process, nbd.

COTH and summoning items don't mean as much in group settings, true, but simply having a disposable tank and the sustained dps of the mage + pet should argue against it being considered a weak group class at all. in fact, its one of the best DPS classes....

malo line is just icing on the cake. are we a narrow class with a limited toolkit? sure. but that's the way we were designed, as the spell-casting equivalent of a rogue. i prefer the self-sufficiency of the mage though over a rogue

[eunomios]

Worst class for grouping is situational, depending on what classes, camps, gear, and overall players (2-6) are available. The GOAL of the group is also very important in forming this opinion: DPS racing a single mob, grinding mobs for exp, hunting PHs for a quest drop, roleplay/friendship/challenges etc... To be specific about all situations and conditions would result in pages of text; So I will assume this thread is about a PUG in an established exp camp intending to max at 6 players. Wizard and Druid are the worst classes for this situation and are only worth inviting if there is no other Healer or no animals to charm (Druid), no other CC (Root/Snare/Harmony), or no other players to fill the 6th slot. All other classes DPS Leagues better, and Shaman/Cleric provide so much more as a healer. It could be argued that leaving the 6th slot open incase a different class shows up is better than inviting a Wizard/Druid.

[eunomios]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So basically they are just a DPS class, and other classes can DPS better, such as Monk or Rogue.

DS, proper pet control, utilizing DD spells melee procs/clicks, Malo line for the charm pet which is the center of any Min/Max group... I think you are mistaken. EDIT: Earth pet can allow a Warrior/Monk or any class really to proximity tank and focus their gear choices on DPS exclusively.

There's a reason Cleric Enchanter Mage is one of the Best Grind Trios in EQ up to PoP.

[Fammaden]

So when you say "grouping" I'm going to assume you mean the traditional six-man experience group. Not a duo or a trio, or even a four man group, an XP group that seeks to fill to six players and grind straight xp as the goal.

For a full XP group the goal is always chain pulling. You always want a mob dying in camp non stop as much as possible. This was true in the year 2000 and its still true today.

The reason wizards have long been called the worst group class is because they are the most inefficient class for accomplishing the chain killing goal. A pure dps class that has built in downtime based around burst damage just loses out to any class who can sustain dps without downtime from one mob to the next.

As far as utility there is literally nothing a wizard can do that another class can't do as well or better, and many times can fill the role with a wider range of utility tools than a wizard. Druid is a close second worst group class due to being so wildly inefficient compared to clerics and shamans. But overall a druid can offer everything a wizard can plus significant extra utility potential, especially in outdoor xp zones and yes there are lots of popular outdoor flagged group xp spots at any given time.

Another thing that was as true in 2000 as it is today is that there's never any shortage of people who want to stand up and defend the wizard as a grouping class. But no matter the rationalizations, the wizard by design can never really carry its weight effectively in a chain pulling full XP group. This doesn't mean they can't contribute anything to a group theoretically or that no one should ever invite them. But they are the worst class for a six man XP group and its not close.

DSM is right, its an asymmetrical game, not all classes were created equal. The other thread was more interesting for the most part because the answer to this question is long past settled, expect for the white knight grouping wizard apologists.

[Keza]

Originally Posted by eqravenprince [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What's wrong with being specific. Last thread devolved into all the raid meatheads when it was a general question to begin with.

A general question yet your problem with it is that it "devolved" into specific aspects of the game that are pertinent to the point asked by the thread. In other words, you disagreed so you made a different thread that portrayed your specific view in a better light.

It wasn't even your thread (or maybe it was as it's a general bait post) and you made a dupe thread claiming the other was hijacked, devolved and everyone is wrong about how they play the game. If you aren't going to debate the point you're just looking for people to agree with you.

[eunomios]

Originally Posted by Fammaden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

white knight grouping wizard apologists.

I mean... to be fair an enchanter cleric wizard AE group is de facto the fastest way to earn exp in EQ from classic to whenever the Devs nerf it.

But for a general PuG... wizards should just know they are leeching.

[Fammaden]

Yeah I wasn't counting the AE group, I was assuming generally PuG groups as well, and even back in the old days those were generally premade and/or guild groups.

[eqravenprince]

Originally Posted by Keza [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A general question yet your problem with it is that it "devolved" into specific aspects of the game that are pertinent to the point asked by the thread. In other words, you disagreed so you made a different thread that portrayed your specific view in a better light.

It wasn't even your thread (or maybe it was as it's a general bait post) and you made a dupe thread claiming the other was hijacked, devolved and everyone is wrong about how they play the game. If you aren't going to debate the point you're just looking for people to agree with you.

I only wanted to read people's opinion about group game, it's as simple as that. And yeah, I insulted certain type of people who think EQ is only about raiding. Raiding sucks, and plenty of people could care less about it. As for debating, I have been when I have time to post. No one has really said anything to change my mind about wizards being the most underpowered group class and warriors being 2nd most underpowered. Wizard it's obvious, they have zero sustained DPS, can't heal, can't debuff, can't buff, have burst damage and root which many classes have. As for Warrior, SK and Pally tank better which is the primary purpose, and you really only need 1 tank, that leaves DPS which Warrior is behind many classes in that department.