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  #41  
Old 10-21-2020, 10:17 AM
saftbudet saftbudet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamarun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Successful petitions = 1 week raid suspension from all content.

Do this and a failed petition = 1 week raid suspension from all raid content. Stops petitions in their tracks unless its absolutely clear (in which case it will probably be resolved on its own)
Sounds good, GMs kinda brought this on themself, by not issuing harder penalties. Some guilds does not fear the ruling of GMs, because the punishments are so soft.
  #42  
Old 10-21-2020, 10:18 AM
saftbudet saftbudet is offline
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Like if a new FTE goes out on Vulak Aerr, mid fight .... the guild killing him, should be so afraid of the punishment and imedietly dropping it.
  #43  
Old 10-21-2020, 10:20 AM
Ovaltine Ovaltine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Incubo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
The problem with all rotations is, who gets included in the rotation? TOV is only being killed by Fr/AG and Riot. Do other guilds like TSS / DB etc. deserve a rotation slot?
Excellent point Mr. Incubo and I'm glad you brought that up.

BLUF: No

I recommend that the rotation be Riot and AG/F. AG/F as one entity. 2 guilds on the rotation. Any guild like TSS/Kittens/AEGIS that want a piece of the action ask, or be assigned, a guild that has a rotation spot to tag along with. They can raid and win loots on the kind of population roll system AG/F uses.

Just an idea.
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  #44  
Old 10-21-2020, 10:24 AM
Endonde Endonde is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Incubo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
The problem with all rotations is, who gets included in the rotation? TOV is only being killed by Fr/AG and Riot. Do other guilds like TSS / DB etc. deserve a rotation slot?
Yea this is how that's going to go. Top 3 guilds decide to rotate, but Freedom and AG want separate slots. Well if Freedom gets a slot, Kittens has killed more targets as a guild than Freedom has solo so what's the reason to exclude Kittens? Then Kittens gets a slot so what's the reason to exclude TSS?

Unless you are going to do a full blown rotation it's impossible to please everyone. If you do a full blown rotation you end up with larger guilds splintering into several smaller guilds to maximize the benefit of the rotation which leads the rotation to being longer than it normally should be. Then you have to deal with how guilds are allowed to join the rotation, while most guilds won't want to add new guilds to an already inflated rotation.

I'm personally fine with rotations because I've played this game long enough that I don't care how often I kill a specific dragon, but I'm sure there is a vocal minority who would hate it.
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  #45  
Old 10-21-2020, 10:28 AM
xdrcfrx xdrcfrx is online now
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Requiring that a non-rotation guild beat a rotation-guild to [mob x] to earn a rotation slot is bad system design. the rotation-guild is already at an inherent advantage because it can dedicate resources to the specific gatekeeper mobs without having to bother competing for other, also rotated, mobs.

IMO the only fair way to manage the rotation is to have some other metric, like "can kill [mob x] solo or in [y amount of time]." Let guilds request and be given the opportunity, to get the kill on whichever is the gatekeeper mob. If they fail, some kind of cool-down before they can request again. Maybe add some other function whereby a guild can lose its rotation spot if it fails to achieve some basic result, and then also has to sit on cool-down for a few weeks before getting back in.

Importantly, this needs to be a GM enforced meta, though. If it's just a player agreement, all it takes is one guild to say "no, we're not agreeing to that. we will consider all mobs FFA," to ruin it.
  #46  
Old 10-21-2020, 10:40 AM
HitsmeChanter HitsmeChanter is offline
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realistically rotation between the big guilds just guarantees those mobs for those guilds, makes no real chance for other guilds to build up for that mob, its easier for people to just go to one of those guilds...
  #47  
Old 10-21-2020, 10:48 AM
Ovaltine Ovaltine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HitsmeChanter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
realistically rotation between the big guilds just guarantees those mobs for those guilds, makes no real chance for other guilds to build up for that mob, its easier for people to just go to one of those guilds...
Isn't it the same even without rotations?
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  #48  
Old 10-21-2020, 10:53 AM
Toomuch Toomuch is offline
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To start off with, I'd like to thank the (VOLUNTEER) staff for trying. This game is something that a lot of us really like, waaaay too much, so we all get really emotionally invested. Every now and then, when the fit's hitting the shan with server drama, I step back and realize that it's all being managed by volunteers. As players on the server, we've got to do better. What exactly can we do, and how, are the questions we need to answer together.

1. Personally, I strongly agree with the "Cry Wolf" punishments being increased, substantially. I'm thinking we need to not make it quite as harsh as the actual penalty for violating the raid rules, or at least have it start 1 step lower, and then progress similarly? Example: First Cry Wolf offense = official warning, 2nd Cry Wolf = 2x concession on that mob, 3rd Cry Wolf = 1 week zone-wide ban, 4th Cry Wolf = 1 week blanket raid ban, 5th Cry Wolf = 1 month blanket raid ban. If no Cry Wolf petitions have been submitted in the last 3 months, then it resets back to 0.

One of the most frustrating things to deal with, whether it's in a game or in life, is hypocrisy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreenk317 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
When a guild is currently engaged in behaviour that they petitioned you for the week before. You point this out, and there response is "we know the rules, your wrong".... Should be an automatic ban, because either they clearly cried wolf the week before, or are intentionally breaking the rules right now. And this exact scenario comes up almost every week.

It very often is that cut and dry/ black and white
This point is huge. This is rampant right now. There are indeed some bans worth handing out in relation to this, I'm 100% certain.

Now, this isn't to say we should throw out the FORMAT for how to submit petitions. The current format (well written documentation) is probably for the best. We just need to make 100% certain we're cutting out all the BS for the staff, and ensure that we're trying to resolve it ourselves.

2. My next point is something that's out of our control though, and I'm throwing it out there for context, for both players and staff to see: there has never been a time when the server had more level 60's ready and willing to compete for top-tier content. Or in other words, there's more level 60 "mouths to feed" that want to see top-end content, then there has ever been before. By nature, there's going to be increasing competition, and probably some associated hard feelings, when there's more and more people going after the same number of things (or DECREASING number of things, when you account for no Warders in game anymore, and a seeming decrease in the average number of quakes in the last year or so). It's literally economics: the supply isn't increasing, if anything it's decreasing, and the demand is definitely increasing. In economics, what does that do to the price of goods? (spoiler: the price goes up.)

Some more context on the people involved:

Some of these level 60's are those types of players that have been slowly leveling for years, never had drama with anyone ever, never submitted a petition ever, have casted 1000 rezzes and/or ported 1000 people for free, etc, and are finally 60, and feel they truly are deserving of some top-end content, as they've been the "server good-guy" for as long as anyone else, if not longer.

There are others that are undeniably more hardcore. They've been level 60 and raiding on p99 for so long that they can tell you the differences between the management styles that each of the GM's have had. They've done their homework on all the raid encounters, know how to race to mobs the fastest, know every corner to hide behind to dodge AE's but still be in range to land heals, are constantly swapping characters based on the location or needs of the raid, and are always on the leading edge on how to handle each encounter in a new/better way to beat the competition. They feel like they are deserving of the top-end content, because they put in the prep-work, beat out the competition for it, etc.

And then there's all kinds of variations of people in-between, but everyone wants their slice of the pie.

So, what does all this *mean*? Do we rotate 100% of the top-tier content, and take the competition out of it? I don't know. That doesn't seem like Classic EQ to me, but neither does having 400+ level 60's ready, willing, and/or literally sitting there waiting to go after the same raid boss when it pops. I think I like the idea of rotating some things, sometimes, essentially expanding on what's been done with Plane of Fear golem rotations.

Should we cry and whine and moan for a way to add more top-tier content, to offset/meet the demand? Even if it were nicely requested or voted on by the masses in the most thoughtfully worded essay/poll, would that even have any affect? If we prove we can play nice, would this even be considered, as a reward of sorts? I don't know. I'd sure like to know though.
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Last edited by Toomuch; 10-21-2020 at 11:15 AM..
  #49  
Old 10-21-2020, 10:57 AM
Solist Solist is offline
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Delayed races w/ lockout.

2 targets must be up in zone.
After 2nd mob pops, 30min until race.
Roll based race aka golems/KT/Statue.
1hr lockout on FTE.

Then at least 1 loser gets a mob too, and it tries to keep windows a little tighter.
  #50  
Old 10-21-2020, 10:58 AM
7thGate 7thGate is offline
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Not in the top, but Quakes seem like they're both fun, competitive and (usually?) less full of problems since people do much less head to head conflict since there are other targets to switch to on a FTE loss. If that's not the experience of Riot/Freedom/AG, then never mind, but it looks that way from here.

Maybe something like, noone kills anything on the 7 day spawns until everything repops, then everyone goes. Maybe also have Vulak be an open raid mob for the whole server to remove the biggest source of direct head to head competition with the weird standoffs that can happen with his invulnerability flag.

That preserves competition, and the lion's share of the loot and big targets goes to the big players that can quickly mobilize across targets and kill them efficiently without wipes, but it also removes the horrible time suck of tracking windows for everything and lets smaller guilds prioritize stuff like Talendor to practice raiding.

I don't know how many petitions usually come out of a quake vs. non-quake stuff, but it might be a fix?
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