Enchanter "DPS"

[Torik]

Originally Posted by 1asdfasdf1 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Can someone explain why "charm sucks until mid levels"? The mechanic is still random duration with break checks done vs charisma every tick right?

Break checks mostly matter on level, which is why you should NEVER charm a mob more than 85% of your level (for exp purposes). I think MR is secondary to level, and charisma is last.

Level ~40+ is when mob DPS really starts getting good, which is why charm killing becomes amazing around then.

As for the person complaining that they can't afford any cheap CHA gear, look for a Crude Stein (100pp), +7 CHA bracers (50pp each), Opalline Earrings (50pp each), Gypsy Medallion (100pp). For 400pp that gets you +48 CHA.

For another 600pp you can get the Rod of Insidious Glamour (+12 CHA and a GCD clicky).

For another ~1k you can get a Siryn Hair Hood (+13 CHA).

So for 2k you will have +73 CHA.

[Tuurin]

Protip- if you have Illusion: Dark Elf, you can run into Oggok and buy a Crude Stein off the merchants there for like 10p (or free if someone farming guards lets you loot a rotting one). People often farm guards and vendor the steins.

[Rimitto]

Originally Posted by mumpz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

@OP

Have you tried charming osagren in hhk goblin groups? He may change your mind.

But yeah, lower level charming is just OK. For soloing I think its still more efficient, but I get your point groups. Solo charming killing is awesome when you can get xp for two mobs.

have YOU been to hhk goblins lately? last 7 times I've been there the entire area has been perma-camped by various guilds and alts of people that only know that zone [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I found a much faster source of solo/party exp in najena. Especially since it plays to my benefits as an enchanter who is capable of using mezz, mesmerization, root, and various other forms of control abilities that only my class gets. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Almost like that place was designed to benefit enchanters or something. Go Figure. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

don't get me wrong, if this was my 5th alt twinkled enchanter and I was part of some weird homogenous guild like azure dream or aftermath or that kittens guild, I probably would be all over those goblins... with the same 9 other people that are camping there are this very second (I haven't even logged in today but I still know they're sitting right there.)

Originally Posted by Wallicker [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Charm(60 mana) break -> stun(20mana) -> mez(20mana) -> tash(10 mana) -> recharm(60mana) break.

fixed it for ya ;-)
btw, after getting a new robe, and mask recently, I managed to get about 100 extra mana points... so I'm up to 800 mana now. this failure of a charm strategy only drains me to 1/8th my mana instead of 1/6th [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Rimitto]

Originally Posted by Torik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As for the person complaining that they can't afford any cheap CHA gear, look for a Crude Stein (100pp), +7 CHA bracers (50pp each), Opalline Earrings (50pp each), Gypsy Medallion (100pp). For 400pp that gets you +48 CHA.

For another 600pp you can get the Rod of Insidious Glamour (+12 CHA and a GCD clicky).

For another ~1k you can get a Siryn Hair Hood (+13 CHA).

So for 2k you will have +73 CHA.

yeah totally cheap and easy for a twinkled character.
not like I'm using that money for tradeskills, spells, spell ingredients, ports, or any form of actual game related quests or expenditures.

Offhand, what, pray tell, is your idea of the normal amount of plat a level 12 enchanter should have, is?
I'll give you a hint... it's not 4k... I'll give you another hint... it's not 400pp either :-)

At level 24 (specifically) I've only really just started getting (What I consider) good money. Managed to save up a crap ton from repeat farming bandit sashes to get up to 24 because 23 is a horrible level for enchanters. That combined with all the slow loot I've been getting and storing, I managed to hit my first thousand recently (level 25) and bought a new robe with that money... still have a bit left but haven't touched any of my tradeskills which require attention for a couple levels. Brownie parts alone is going to set me back a good 400-600 plat. jewelrycrafting jump from silver to plat is just... ballbustingly hard on the money.... and trying to get research past 20 is also taking it's toll. That's not including all the new spells I bought recently which cost a pretty penny.. and on top of all that, you're recommending that I spend money I don't have in order to use a setup that has been proven to kill me multiple times with an armor set that I cannot afford simply to "git gud".
Hello Kettle, it's pot here, You're black!!!

(just a side note, almost all of my skills/tradeskills are 130-150 range, aside from jewelcrafting and research)
just an additional note... even with all my current gear I've got a good 148 cha (with buffs up), so I personally don't think my cha is anything to sneeze at, and yet shit still breaks within 1 minute time... spending 1/8th my MP on a minion that is going to do half as much as an animation is quite literally, stupid. Not to mention that I need mana for my nukes as well... getting half exp due to minion kills just doesn't sit kosher with me. You're seeing the world through rose-tinted glasses. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]


Edit: I'm actually starting to wonder if half of these people even play this game or if they're all just elaborate trolls that play on live/mangler. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Torik]

Originally Posted by Rimitto [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

yeah totally cheap and easy for a twinkled character.
not like I'm using that money for tradeskills, spells, spell ingredients, ports, or any form of actual game related quests or expenditures.

Offhand, what, pray tell, is your idea of the normal amount of plat a level 12 enchanter should have, is?
I'll give you a hint... it's not 4k... I'll give you another hint... it's not 400pp either :-)

At level 24 (specifically) I've only really just started getting (What I consider) good money. Managed to save up a crap ton from repeat farming bandit sashes to get up to 24 because 23 is a horrible level for enchanters. That combined with all the slow loot I've been getting and storing, I managed to hit my first thousand recently (level 25) and bought a new robe with that money... still have a bit left but haven't touched any of my tradeskills which require attention for a couple levels. Brownie parts alone is going to set me back a good 400-600 plat. jewelrycrafting jump from silver to plat is just... ballbustingly hard on the money.... and trying to get research past 20 is also taking it's toll. That's not including all the new spells I bought recently which cost a pretty penny.. and on top of all that, you're recommending that I spend money I don't have in order to use a setup that has been proven to kill me multiple times with an armor set that I cannot afford simply to "git gud".
Hello Kettle, it's pot here, You're black!!!

(just a side note, almost all of my skills/tradeskills are 130-150 range, aside from jewelcrafting and research)
just an additional note... even with all my current gear I've got a good 148 cha (with buffs up), so I personally don't think my cha is anything to sneeze at, and yet shit still breaks within 1 minute time... spending 1/8th my MP on a minion that is going to do half as much as an animation is quite literally, stupid. Not to mention that I need mana for my nukes as well... getting half exp due to minion kills just doesn't sit kosher with me. You're seeing the world through rose-tinted glasses. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]


Edit: I'm actually starting to wonder if half of these people even play this game or if they're all just elaborate trolls that play on live/mangler. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My advice: Sell your ~1k robe. Buy the Rod + 400pp in CHA items I recommended. Stop focusing on tradeskills (except research) until you are 50+ and can make 500pp an hour. IMO, if you're not charming, you should play another class that better suits your playstyle, because once you are 40+ charming is pretty much your only option (unless you just wanna be a buff bot). 148 CHA is a little low.. A charming enchanter should have at least 200 CHA (buffed). I hope this helps!

Edit: You may have mentioned this already, but what level are the mobs you are charming as a level 25 enc? I would not try to charm anything higher than level 21. Also, are you tashing them before you charm them?

Edit 2: There are also 7 CHA / 5 DEX rings you can get for 150pp each, once you get the Rod and 400pp in gear I mentioned.

[Crawdad]

Originally Posted by Rimitto [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

at level 12... having 3-4k plat... please do go on [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As I said, there are tons of slots you can fill for 50-100p and use until 60. No reason you can't fill out slots as you go, or get several cheap pieces all at once. Here is a Magelo for a geared Enchanter that comes right out at 4k. There are 15 slots (out of 20) that are less than 200p (an afternoon killing bandits or wisps). The only thing that needs replaced are the rings to velium fire wedding rings, otherwise you can take this gear to 60. Cheap McChanty actually has too much Cha really, so feel free to mix-and-match as you'd like.

That's my experience up until level 26 now, at the very least.
I understand your point though, you've thoroughly meta-game'd the game into a speedrun at this point so anything less than "MOB TARGET X 26:30 4 minutes time save" is a waste to you and you don't see any value or joy in anything else including yourself, except getting that charm down to "be good". But here's my counter-argument... What does a full strength enchanter look like :-)
No response? How about a full dexterity enchanter?

I think this rant is particularly funny, as you'll be hard pressed to find a less min/max'er than me (except for anything Iksar related). You seem rather trolly, but I think there's a lot of good information that will come out of this thread for those who don't take suggestions as a personal attack. What does a full Str/Dex enchanter look like? Rather poor while leveling. Cha has a painfully obvious effect on charm.

If you can't even tell the difference between AC mattering as far as tanking then you shouldn't really argue the metagame of early level enchanters, especially since at level 12 you pretty much use half your mp to even use charm, and that's without any of the clarity line, Bwuahahahaa.
But let's be honest, you'd be lost without your twinkles.

AC has been fixed here a long time and is very obvious in parses. Here is a link showing its effectiveness for enchanters. Twinking is a big part of this game to some people, and others prefer to go at it naked. My enchanter enjoyed starting life with a dragoon dirk and crude stein for certain [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] You can most certainly start charming at 12 while mostly naked. The minotaurs in Steamfont are my favorite place as a lowbie enchanter, as its two sets of two near a zoneline. I usually melee it up with the old animation until 14, though.

@asdfgasdfg I couldn't agree more with the CR thing. Once you die you're instantly losing exp up to and even beyond getting your corpse back. It's an unneeded risk for a little reward UNLESS you're in a group. That being said.. I did group with some people in unrest before and still died while using charm strats several times... made a good -3 blue bubbles for a good 40 minutes of effort. That's not progress.

Charming is the fastest way to level, for any class that can do it. You can look here, or ask a high level enchanter in-game, and find a wealth of information about it and its benefits/challenges. But I get the feeling from this and other comments that you aren't really here for anything other than trolling [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

yeah totally cheap and easy for a twinkled character.
not like I'm using that money for tradeskills, spells, spell ingredients, ports, or any form of actual game related quests or expenditures.

Offhand, what, pray tell, is your idea of the normal amount of plat a level 12 enchanter should have, is?
I'll give you a hint... it's not 4k... I'll give you another hint... it's not 400pp either :-)

Tradeskills and ports are plat sinks. There's no reason to spend your money on either at low levels. You can't throw a stone without hitting a leveling/plat guide for p99. Enchanters have some of the easiest time earning money while leveling as well. It is very easy to have 2k by the mid-20s.

[commongood]

Originally Posted by 1asdfasdf1 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Can someone explain why "charm sucks until mid levels"? The mechanic is still random duration with break checks done vs charisma every tick right?

The way I see it, it is a combination of factors but chief among them is the size of your mana pool relative to the spells you are casting and your lack of mana regen through clarity and clarity II on lower levels.

Charms are relatively mana intense spells. So when you invariably get bad luck with breaks you are having to spend a lot of your limited mana ressources recharming. Before level 29 you won't have clarity and that means cumbresome regaining of mana. So you will have a harder time establishing a smooth flow of exp while charm-soloing for that reason.

Then there's something many might not factor in which is that the spells you use the most when charm soloing are your mez, tash, root, charm, nuke and stun (color line). Of those you will be using your level 4 mez until you ding 60. Level 4 mez costs 20 mana. The higher level you get, the lower percent of your total mana pool 20 mana becomes. The same can be said for your root. While I eventually switched to Paralyzing Earth and then Fetter I used my level 8 root until level 49. Again, same logic, the 30 mana becomes relatively less by each level you gain as your mana pool increases.

Lastly I would just like to say that these issues with mana pool size can be exacerbated if you aren't making effecient choices:

- Don't automatically just use your highest level charm. A higher level charm does not have a better chance at not getting resisted and does not have a better chance at lasting longer. It is solely a question of whether the mob you are trying to charm will be immune to your spell or not. Look it up. For instance your level 24 charm - Beguile - works up to level 37 mobs. You get a new charm - Cajoling Whispers - at level 39. Once you ding 39 and scribe CW you should really not be using it yet. Another way to put it is to say you shouldn't be charming something that is only 1 or 2 levels below you. At level 39 you should probably be charming level 31-35 mobs. And so Beguile is fine to use for at least a few more levels. Probably quite a few.

- Don't automatically use your highest level nuke. If you break charm and one mob is at 9% and the other at 1% you might want your highest level nuke to one-shot the 9% mob but you should be memming Chaos Flux or whatever to finish the 1% mob

[DromalPhrenia]

Another reason charm becomes more powerful over time is that the gap between mob HP/DPS and player HP/DPS really widens as you level. At low levels, a charmed pet isn't a massive DPS increase, you (and your group, if you are grouping) have less tools to deal with charm breaks, you have less mana regen and your spells cost more mana relative to your mana pool. See the post above mine for more information on that. At later levels, a charmed pet (especially a hasted DW charmed pet) is an absolute monster, far superior to your animation, you (and other classes) have ways to deal with your charm breaks, etc.

At low levels, your charmed pets won't be significantly better than your summoned pet for tankiness or DPS. But they come with two advantages:
1. For solo play, you can break charm when the mobs are at low health and kill them both for 2 full exp kills, whereas a summoned pet would only net you 1 kill and would take 1/2 the exp if your pet outdamages you.
2. For group play, your charmed pet follows orders. Your summoned pet does not. This was a pretty funny troll by Verant, because your powers of crowd control can get messed up by an unruly pet, and your summoned pet doesn't listen to a thing you say. Also, since they don't listen, you can't make them attack unless you or the pet are hit by a mob.

Playing an enchanter gets pretty chaotic, which is funny since the whole point of the class is reducing the chaos of fighting mobs to make things as streamlined and efficient as possible. You'll be buffing every group member (except bards) with brain buffs and/or haste, crowd controlling with mez and roots, interrupting casters with mez and stuns, slowing every mob... and with charm, you can also do massive DPS and if you aren't grouped with melee, great tanking (mobs at later levels have bonkers hitpoints). The only thing you can't do is heal [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] You can also pull due to the calm line of spells, although due to your crowd control it often won't be an issue if someone overpulls (until you start running into magic immune mobs and the like, but those will resist calm anyway)

[Rimitto]

Originally Posted by Torik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My advice: Sell your ~1k robe. Buy the Rod + 400pp in CHA items I recommended. Stop focusing on tradeskills (except research) until you are 50+ and can make 500pp an hour. IMO, if you're not charming, you should play another class that better suits your playstyle, because once you are 40+ charming is pretty much your only option (unless you just wanna be a buff bot). 148 CHA is a little low.. A charming enchanter should have at least 200 CHA (buffed). I hope this helps!

Edit: You may have mentioned this already, but what level are the mobs you are charming as a level 25 enc? I would not try to charm anything higher than level 21. Also, are you tashing them before you charm them?

Edit 2: There are also 7 CHA / 5 DEX rings you can get for 150pp each, once you get the Rod and 400pp in gear I mentioned.

Nah I think I'll just stick with enchanter because it plays just like another class I used to play in another game... that is to say, it's an area control/stun class. Please understand that I have no intention of ignoring the most useful spells in this class, so things like charm are 3rd rate to me, since they are a 1-trick pony with a broken leg. I've already got the basics of taking 5-6 groups of monsters that range from green-blue solo down with the last dungeon, so the skill tree/mana affordance is definitely starting to open up to me.
(a small bit of information, in the game I played before this, the "enchanters" job was to intercept and interrupt the enemies spellcasting and skilluse and to prevent various other things from occurring such as summonings, specials, and critical hits. It was a true form intercept class, and as such, I plan to develop my metagame in this such fashion. Most of the spells are here and the system is similar, but everyone seems to just have a screwed up attitude about what enchanters should be.)

EDIT 1 response: I'm not, charm sucks. I've tried charming more times than mueller's had chances to "take down trump". Ironically, the best charm I ever had was on a yellow orc in oasis a good amount of levels ago. I've been trying to make it functional on whites, greens, and blues since then but... all of them just don't work. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
As far as levels, I'm not pitiful enough yet to go look up the individual monster levels.
I've been going by the game's general standard color coding system, but mostly sticking to whites and blues when I can. Greens if I have to, and yellows if I am confident or in a tight spot. I realize there are different layers/levels within the coloring system, but it's a good judge if I can take something..... usually... which matters way more to me.

EDIT 2 response: I'm not ignoring cha gear, but It will not be my biggest concern from now on, thanks for clearing this up for me.

Originally Posted by Crawdad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think this rant is particularly funny, as you'll be hard pressed to find a less min/max'er than me (except for anything Iksar related). You seem rather trolly, but I think there's a lot of good information that will come out of this thread for those who don't take suggestions as a personal attack. What does a full Str/Dex enchanter look like? Rather poor while leveling. Cha has a painfully obvious effect on charm.

you call yourself a mix/maxer, but you cannot even answer the question about a min/max when asked. I asked what they looked like, not what their charm looked like. but please, do go on. Surely the charmer class has plenty of interesting builds on it. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
(True story, I actually saw someone talking about an agility build last week, the numbers were very interesting, to say the least)

Originally Posted by Crawdad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Twinking is a big part of this game to some people, and others prefer to go at it naked. My enchanter enjoyed starting life with a dragoon dirk and crude stein for certain [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] You can most certainly start charming at 12 while mostly naked. The minotaurs in Steamfont are my favorite place as a lowbie enchanter, as its two sets of two near a zoneline. I usually melee it up with the old animation until 14, though.



Charming is the fastest way to level, for any class that can do it. You can look here, or ask a high level enchanter in-game, and find a wealth of information about it and its benefits/challenges. But I get the feeling from this and other comments that you aren't really here for anything other than trolling [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

funny I get the same feeling from you, that you're only trolling.
I really liked the part where you flatout bald faced admitted to twinking while having the audacity to say that it's "easier". I mean, let's be real, if I had 1 million dollars, it would probably be pretty easy to buy a high end gaming computer, rather than working up and saving money to buy one. Analogies eh man?
I get ya though, you're completely out of touch, don't worry, I get it. It happens. You even said yourself "Ask a High Level Enchanter". Why don't we just reverse the situation then? Dear high level enchanters, what weapons do the higher level animations use and what's their DPS ratio range between a bad summoned animation and a high summoned animation? Furthermore, What are the best combinations of spells that can be used to dismantle groups of 7 or more at a standstill standoff while maintaining a decent balance of MP -> damage ratio. These are the things I would like to know as I progress. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
(I really hope the mesmerization line beefs up its time limit by 40)

Originally Posted by Crawdad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Tradeskills and ports are plat sinks. There's no reason to spend your money on either at low levels. You can't throw a stone without hitting a leveling/plat guide for p99. Enchanters have some of the easiest time earning money while leveling as well. It is very easy to have 2k by the mid-20s.

Funny, I guess I just skipped all that then... my highest earnings have been 1.6k which I spent on a stupid looking robe, spells, and various other things. Most of that has been new money too from the horrible grind from 22-24. Oh speaking of that, bandit sashes are not going to be viable in the next update. That's one thing I've noticed is that every couple of levels when animations hit 3 daggers, they become horribly outdated... yet once they make that jump they becoming incredibly strong. I guess you wouldn't know of that though, you never use them.

[snyder43]

I give you a lot of credit for taking the path less traveled. If you ever start streaming (or Youtubing), let me know and I'll be glad to tune in.