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  #141  
Old 09-20-2022, 11:32 AM
PlsNoBan PlsNoBan is offline
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Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Honestly I would support raid instancing on P99. Not for regular dungeons so certain things like Kael would still get contested but for things like the planes and ToV whatever just instance it. The whole Zerg and clickie meta nowadays is so unclassic anyway that why not just shove the big groups of man children into their own respective instances and call it a day.

I could imagine one benefit being maybe the staff is more engaged on other things because they’re not spending all their free time dealing with whiney raid petitions.
That's the thing. I can see the argument against instances. I understand the fear of losing players if gear becomes easier to get. The game CAN become stale if you get full bis gear and "run out of things to do". Stuff like instances or raid rotations or removing variance and reducing spawn times or whatever other changes you can come up with will all have their pros and cons. I'm just personally of the opinion that the current system has far more cons. The p99 endgame raid "meta" is the most absurd bullshit. It's really unbelievable how dumb it has become. Making gear easier to get and having some people burn out or get bored is a small price to pay for making an overall better experience for everyone else.

Like I said before TONS of people play this game and never raid at all. They aren't all going to magically quit if raiding becomes more approachable. They still find enjoyment in the game after years and years without even touching raid targets.
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  #142  
Old 09-20-2022, 12:00 PM
DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is offline
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There is one surefire way to determine the best course of action, but it will probably never happen.

When the next Green Server comes, put faster raid respawns on it. Roll the old Green characters into Blue and keep the normal raid respawn timers on Blue.

Then we have two servers, one with normal raid respawn timers and one with faster raid respawn timers. Then we will see which server ends up with more players at the end of the next Green server, and we don't lose existing players because you can still play Blue.

Based on the current data (TLP vs P99), I think the normal raid respawn timers will win. But you never know.
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  #143  
Old 09-20-2022, 12:06 PM
PlsNoBan PlsNoBan is offline
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Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
There is one surefire way to determine the best course of action, but it will probably never happen.

When the next Green Server comes, put faster raid respawns on it. Roll the old Green characters into Blue and keep the normal raid respawn timers on Blue.

Then we have two servers, one with normal raid respawn timers and one with faster raid respawn timers. Then we will see which server ends up with more players at the end of the next Green server, and we don't lose existing players because you can still play Blue.

Based on the current data (TLP vs P99), I think the normal raid respawn timers will win. But you never know.
The numbers could be lower. In fact I suspect they probably will be by a little bit. I just think lower numbers with a healthy endgame is preferable to more players with extremely toxic nonsense. That's all. Being that P99 isn't a business trying to make money it doesn't harm them to have slightly less players. As long as there's enough players to do stuff it's fine. I've been on other emu servers with ~100 players and it was still fun. I don't think there's any chance P99 dips under like 400-500 per server at peak almost no matter what they do. I do like the idea of trying new things on green 2.0 though! That's a good way to experiment without compromising blue. If it ends up being bad for whatever reason they can always nix it for green 3.0 in 2078
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  #144  
Old 09-20-2022, 12:19 PM
Troxx Troxx is offline
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Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
That's the thing. I can see the argument against instances. I understand the fear of losing players if gear becomes easier to get. The game CAN become stale if you get full bis gear and "run out of things to do". Stuff like instances or raid rotations or removing variance and reducing spawn times or whatever other changes you can come up with will all have their pros and cons. I'm just personally of the opinion that the current system has far more cons. The p99 endgame raid "meta" is the most absurd bullshit. It's really unbelievable how dumb it has become. Making gear easier to get and having some people burn out or get bored is a small price to pay for making an overall better experience for everyone else.

Like I said before TONS of people play this game and never raid at all. They aren't all going to magically quit if raiding becomes more approachable. They still find enjoyment in the game after years and years without even touching raid targets.
I could get behind this specifically for blue. Green and future green 2.0 can always strive for strictly classic but what we have on blue is so far from classic it isnít even funny. Classic raiding was nothing like p99 raiding where you have hundreds of players with high end gear and umpteen alts Ö all of whom are willing to park their alts all over Norrath and log in for a 2am batphone.

P99 raiding is about as far from a classic experience as you can get.
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  #145  
Old 09-20-2022, 12:25 PM
unsunghero unsunghero is offline
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I think the forums creates a biased impression that the game is mostly high end raiders while the actual majority of players are casual unguilded scrubs that only play a couple hours a week/month, donít raid, and donít even realize this forum exists

The appeal of this game to many casuals is that you can stay casual because you arenít falling behind a never-ending new-expansion-release power curve. The reality is you still probably canít ever catch up to the current high end but at least you can pretend you can. Whereas with TLP or modern MMOís you know youíll never catch up because by the time you do, another expansion has released invalidating all the current gear
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  #146  
Old 09-20-2022, 12:29 PM
PlsNoBan PlsNoBan is offline
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Originally Posted by unsunghero [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I think the forums creates a biased impression that the game is mostly high end raiders while the actual majority of players are casual unguilded scrubs that only play a couple hours a week/month, donít raid, and donít even realize this forum exists

The appeal of this game to many casuals is that you can stay casual because you arenít falling behind a never-ending new-expansion-release power curve. The reality is you still probably canít ever catch up to the current high end but at least you can pretend you can. Whereas with TLP or modern MMOís you know youíll never catch up because by the time you do, another expansion has released invalidating all the current gear
100% this. This is why I think that no matter what you do to the endgame (even removing raid targets entirely from the game) would not kill the server(s). There's a lot more non raiders than I think some people believe.
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  #147  
Old 09-20-2022, 12:55 PM
DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is offline
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Originally Posted by unsunghero [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I think the forums creates a biased impression that the game is mostly high end raiders while the actual majority of players are casual unguilded scrubs that only play a couple hours a week/month, don’t raid, and don’t even realize this forum exists

The appeal of this game to many casuals is that you can stay casual because you aren’t falling behind a never-ending new-expansion-release power curve. The reality is you still probably can’t ever catch up to the current high end but at least you can pretend you can. Whereas with TLP or modern MMO’s you know you’ll never catch up because by the time you do, another expansion has released invalidating all the current gear
I understand that most players on P99 are casual players who never/barely raid. However, I did do a lot of raiding in the Aftermath days. I know that you can easily get 300+ players in a raid zone if it is during a popular time. Losing a few hundred players due to changing the raid scene in a negative way wouldn't be healthy for P99.

The biggest problem I see is the potential for a cascading effect. First, the hardcore raiders will leave. This won't decimate the population, but it will reduce it by a good 10-20%. When the casual raiders fill in the gap, they will end up leaving faster due to getting what they wanted. This will cause more players to leave.

Having the population at a healthy level is what is keeping the casual players playing in my opinion. This means you get more opportunities for groups, cheaper items due to them being farmed more, etc.

If the population drops below a certain number, more people leave because the server feels empty. This has happened many times before in MMO's. If a multiplayer game has been running 1000+ players consistently for 5+ years, you don't want to mess with the formula. For some reason it works, even if we don't know why. It isn't worth the risk to change it in my opinion.

P99 is harder to get into than other games due to all of the hurdles you need to jump over to start playing. It does turn off a lot of new players. P99 isn't great at providing access to new players, so player turnaround is lower. This means losing players has a bigger effect.
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Do you have questions about Shaman races? Read my guide: https://wiki.project1999.com/Shamwow...man_Race_Guide
Want to see Shaman videos? Check out my youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFU...zEFJVBIH3-jUog
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  #148  
Old 09-20-2022, 01:02 PM
PlsNoBan PlsNoBan is offline
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Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I understand that most players on P99 are casual players who never/barely raid. However, I did do a lot of raiding in the Aftermath days. I know that you can easily get 300+ players in a raid zone if it is during a popular time. Losing a few hundred players due to changing the raid scene in a negative way wouldn't be healthy for P99.

The biggest problem I see is the potential for a cascading effect. First, the hardcore raiders will leave. This won't decimate the population, but it will reduce it by a good 10-20%. When the casual raiders fill in the gap, they will end up leaving faster due to getting what they wanted. This will cause more players to leave.

Having the population at a healthy level is what is keeping the casual players playing in my opinion. This means you get more opportunities for groups, cheaper items due to them being farmed more, etc.

If the population drops below a certain number, more people leave because the server feels empty. This has happened many times before in MMO's. If a multiplayer game has been running 1000+ players consistently for 5+ years, you don't want to mess with the formula. For some reason it works, even if we don't know why. It isn't worth the risk to change it in my opinion.

P99 is harder to get into than other games due to all of the hurdles you need to jump over to start playing. It does turn off a lot of new players. P99 isn't great at providing access to new players, so player turnaround is lower. This means losing players has a bigger effect.
I'm going to just respectfully agree to disagree here. Even if you use the 300 number for "hardcore raiders" which I suspect it's probably a bit less than that. Many of those 300 are just warmbodies that are only in those guilds cause its the ONLY WAY to actually participate in high value endgame raiding. But even granting that 300. If you have 1000 players on the server at peak (rough estimate here) and you take 300 hardcore raiders and you make a change to make endgame more approachable to the majority of the server. Out of those 300 I can 100% guarantee that not 100% of those 300 people are going to go "Well this server sucks now I quit". I'd guess probably like 30% of those raiders may quit? That's being kind of generous I think? You're talking about losing less than 100 players at peak. The casuals not participating in endgame at all right now aren't going to start participating cause it becomes more approachable then get a few pieces of gear and go "Well I'm bored of the game I've been playing for 5+ years now cause I got some raid loot". Also on top of that like I mentioned earlier. How many players is P99 going to GAIN by bringing back people that left cause they were jaded by the current endgame system?

Just the way I see it. No way to really prove this one way or another without trying it. The comparison to TLP's doesn't really work I don't think. There's a lot of differences between P99 and TLP that change things. I certainly don't think P99 staff will ever entertain making changes like this though. People have been begging for changes like this for a decade and nothing has substantially changed so this conversation is ultimately pointless.
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Last edited by PlsNoBan; 09-20-2022 at 01:06 PM..
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  #149  
Old 09-20-2022, 01:11 PM
DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is offline
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Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I'm going to just respectfully agree to disagree here. Even if you use the 300 number for "hardcore raiders" which I suspect it's probably a bit less than that. Many of those 300 are just warmbodies that are only in those guilds cause its the ONLY WAY to actually participate in high value endgame raiding. But even granting that 300. If you have 1000 players on the server at peak (rough estimate here) and you take 300 hardcore raiders and you make a change to make endgame more approachable to the majority of the server. Out of those 300 I can 100% guarantee that not 100% of those 300 people are going to go "Well this server sucks now I quit". I'd guess probably like 30% of those raiders may quit? That's being kind of generous I think? You're talking about losing less than 100 players at peak. The casuals not participating in endgame at all right now aren't going to start participating cause it becomes more approachable then get a few pieces of gear and go "Well I'm bored of the game I've been playing for 5+ years now cause I got some raid loot".

Just the way I see it. No way to really prove this one way or another without trying it. The comparison to TLP's doesn't really work I don't think. There's a lot of differences between P99 and TLP that change things. I certainly don't think P99 staff will ever entertain making changes like this though. People have been begging for changes like this for a decade and nothing has substantially changed so this conversation is ultimately pointless.
As you say, there is no way to know for sure until you try it. I am simply saying mistakes are harder to fix on P99 due to the barriers of entry and lower amount of new players coming in. I am not trying to claim that all of the raiders will leave, but you have to assume the worst case when you have no data. That is what I do.

That is why I would prefer to try any drastic changes on another P99 server, as I mentioned before. That way we don't lose players, and we get to see what will happen definitively. I agree with you that there are other factors in TLP that affect player turnaround, but it really is the closest analogy we have to P99.
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Shamwowi Wipesalot - 60 Ogre Shaman
Bazgek Bonebreaker - 58 Troll Shadowknight
Do you have questions about Shaman races? Read my guide: https://wiki.project1999.com/Shamwow...man_Race_Guide
Want to see Shaman videos? Check out my youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFU...zEFJVBIH3-jUog
Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 09-20-2022 at 01:32 PM..
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  #150  
Old 09-20-2022, 06:31 PM
PlsNoBan PlsNoBan is offline
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Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
As you say, there is no way to know for sure until you try it. I am simply saying mistakes are harder to fix on P99 due to the barriers of entry and lower amount of new players coming in. I am not trying to claim that all of the raiders will leave, but you have to assume the worst case when you have no data. That is what I do.

That is why I would prefer to try any drastic changes on another P99 server, as I mentioned before. That way we don't lose players, and we get to see what will happen definitively. I agree with you that there are other factors in TLP that affect player turnaround, but it really is the closest analogy we have to P99.
Yea I don't disagree with you here. I think it'd be cool to try new things either on blue and keep green with the current system or vice versa. I don't really care which server they do it on. I'd end up making a new main either way most likely. It's never going to happen though unfortunately. I'd love to be wrong here but I doubt it hehe

Little backstory on me: I raided pretty heavily back when IB was one of the top guilds. I wasn't with them super long cause the amount of neckbeardery was just too much for my tastes. I ended up taking a break from the game for a bit then coming back and joining BDA for a more casual experience and still getting *some* raiding in. I would've liked to get more raid targets but I wasn't willing to make P99 my second job to do so. I didn't want to park my characters and be unable to play them for extended periods of time. I wasn't a big altoholic I just wanted to play my main. Nothing was worse than having a day off work and not being able to play my fucking main cause it had to be parked for a 16hr window somewhere. I didn't want to feel obligated to track (so fucking stupid) for bonus dkp or whatever. It was just too much. BDA was much better in that regard but obviously didn't get as many targets. The toxicity of the p99 raid scene eventually pushed BDA leadership to entirely abandon p99 and took almost every single member with them to play on TLP's. Some have returned but most have not and I believe BDA was one of the larger guilds on the server in their heyday. I wanna say the BDA guild on TLP's had like over 200 members within the first week? This is why I say I think people may underestimate how many folks would return if endgame was a little more approachable without making it a job/chore. I don't know what the solution is and I don't think we'll get anything much different than status quo anyway. But that's my story.
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Last edited by PlsNoBan; 09-20-2022 at 06:37 PM..
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