Warriors. Who tanks with a 2h?

[Allishia]

Originally Posted by Solist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Alli uses a lot of scepters unnessesarily, and doesnt spend her life 45mins at a time farming them.

During VS you can free cast totems the entire fight as the tank, as nothing is hitting you when runed.

Lol we have perma scepter farmers getting paid for it and scepters last me a while thank you! I just use a click here or there if need and only on specific mobs /nod.

I honestly did not know about the cast with rune on, will try that ty!

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Solist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wrong on all counts, by a large margin.

Wrong on all accounts? I need you to be a lot more specific.

Count 1: bare minimal ripostes. This is the easiest to tackle.

This isn’t even worthy of a debate. Ripostes are a function of how often you try to hit a thing and get your s chances of hitting you back. Using willsapper/epic as a comparison, with delays of 20 and 24 and the mechanics of double attack and dual wield you will be swinging at least 3-4x as many times as you would with a delay 43 2 hander. This is not up for debate … so yeah 300-400% more riposte damage. How important is this? Meh. Not enough that I would give much of a shit for 99.99% of content. But you said I was “wrong on all counts, by a large margin.

Count 2: threat. This will be the interesting part of the discussion. Threat can be broken down into 2-3 areas (depending on how you want to split them).

A). PROCS: Using willsapper and red epic as example. At 255 dex you’re looking at 2 willsapper and 1 red epic proc per minute. Willsapper proc is hard capped at 400 hate. Red epic is unique at 500 raw hate plus 100 dd. (400x2) + 600 = 1400 proc hate per minute. Compare that to Frostreaver with a 400 threat stun and 125dd x 2 per minute is 1050 threat per minute. From procs. We now establish that Frostreaver is running a 350 threat per minute deficit that has to be made up for. We can later discuss the implications of reducing proc rate from 3 to 2 per minute as I will admit it is significant, but I digress.

B). DAMAGE BONUS: I bet most of us remember the time where damage bonus per swing was a flat 11 per swing regardless of delay or 1h vs 2h. This is no longer the case.
-Using this same combination willsapper still gets that 11 dmg bonus. At a 20 delay but 100% haste (so 1 swing a second) … this generates 780 DB per minute if you only ever single attacked. Since we know warriors double attack AND triple attack you can safely multiply this by 1.8 to see that per minute, willsapper is generating around 1404 threat per minute at 100% haste and a 20 base delay. From DAMAGE BONUS alone.
-Compare now to Frostreaver. It is not a one hander. 2handers now have their own DB tables and at 43 delay it has a damage bonus of 37. This is one of the sweet spots for delay as with a 42 delay DB would have been 34. At 100% haste this 43 delay weapon lands a swing every 2.15 seconds applying this 37 dmg bonus per attempt. This works out to 1032 damage bonus threat per minute if you only single attacked. Multiply this by the same healthy 1.8 to account for double and triple attack and you’re now looking at 1857 threat per minute from DAMAGE BONUS alone.
-Willsapper/epic Dmg bonus threat of 1404 vs 1857 from Frostreaver bumps FR up a 453 advantage in this aspect (453 positive more than offsets the 350 deficit … I trust you see where this is going)

C). POTENTIAL DAMAGE: some like to lump this together with the above. To keep it clean I like to keep it separate. No matter how you slice it the combined ratios of 13/20 and 14/24 are actually inferior to 42/43z. Used to be damage bonus gave faster one handers the advantage but has been shown above this is no longer the case. I don’t have a 13/20 or 14/24 weapon to directly compare it to but it does more than my 9/18 and 12/22 used to do by … a lot. It also beats out my monks superior ratio to willsapper combo (epic fists and 13/21 offhand) by a fair margin. So whatever the non DB component of threat actually is, Frostreaver beats out WS and red epic by some margin.

So we started with a -350 threat deficit due to loss of a proc. We then factor in damage bonus only and Frostreaver is ahead by 103. Factoring in weapon ratio superiority and Frostreaver does actually pull even further ahead.

Count 3: solid dps. We already more or less covered this in B and C above. It will out dps WS and red along with quite a few other raid-use threat combinations. There are definitely better 2 handers out there for dps, but none with the threat proc to round it out.

———————

Discussion:

I know the words math, logic, evidence etc are all dirty words on this forum thanks to DSM but you will need to bring more to the table than “Wrong on all counts, by a large margin” if you actually want to have a meaningful discussion.

My mind is wide open. Please feel free to poke holes in anything I have said above.

I will state I am capable of abstract thought. The above, though accurate, remains napkin math. My experiences do support it. Actual gameplay and napkin math frequently do not line and I will address this further below.

But what would I do if I had a willsapper and red epic? Heck I’d use them most all the time. But wait, didn’t Troxx just say Frostreaver is better? What gives?! We’ll … the ability to slow? Very nice. Red epic stats and proc additionally are awesome. Trident instead of willsapper? Even better. Slow is non magic and has superior ratio. Beyond that, though the napkin math does have Frostreaver on top, I am a realist. Anyone who mains a warrior knows that the first proc is the most critical. Once they start landing you should never be losing aggro unless your group or raid is being stupid. Using FR you lose 50% procs making those dry spells or late first procs super frustrating. Over time though FR will pull ahead, remain ahead, and pull further ahead. I have (very stupidly) tried to raid assist with my FR twice in the past vs WS + red (and a few early mallet dumps by the MT. What happened both times was that despite the jump with the mallet clicks I eventually ripped aggro before the tanks defensive wore off … to bad outcomes both times lol.

Anywho. I’m happy to discuss but please keep the chest thumping, snide patriarchal preaching, and snark out of future replies Solist.

It isn’t productive.

I asked for some feedback and real life experiences from raid warriors who had FR and some good raid 1 handers. I know the napkin math. I want the anecdotes at this point.

[Toxigen]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I asked for some feedback and real life experiences from raid warriors who had FR and some good raid 1 handers. I know the napkin math. I want the anecdotes at this point.

While all decent in a theoretical vacuum, realistically the most important part of tanking any encounter is generating as much threat as possible, with the most critical time being on the pull / first 30 seconds (especially on slowable mobs). Do you really want to run the risk of that slow 2 hander stringing together a bunch of shitty ass misses at the start of a fight?

The quicker you can get that first and second snap procs and some near guaranteed solid white damage, the sooner you get that tash in for slows and/or allow the rogues to start DPSing.

Its the rogues fault if they over dps and rip aggro. Sure, an enchanter can have a TL box up and tash-bomb on a pull...sometimes that is missed though.

Even on long, non-slowable mobs like AoW: I have never seen a war swap to a 2 hander or sword n board after their disc fades...but most of the time I was clenching my ass ready for my trooper (or korakaz / bvellos) pet to break so I could be wrong here.

Is Frostreaver so far behind that you'd be completely useless as tank if you didn't have your red blade + something godly? No, but if you're in vanq or riot you may be laughed at a little til you get a real tanking setup. There's a reason the best wars on the server aren't using it. I think as soon as you have 2 of the top choices (red blade, trident, willsapper, feverblade, shissar, etc) Dain's prized possession gets tucked away forever.

If you want to make big crip blow numbers via zerk dps you get Vulak, Eashen, or Vyemm 2 hander (primal avatar proc luxury here too).

Sidenote: in single group content Frostreaver is a lovely blend of aggro and big dick crippling blows.

[Troxx]

Super importantly Toxigen, When it comes to melee THREAT … Melee threat is dealt in full whether you minimum hit, miss, hit max or even critically hit. Actual dps on target and melee threat on target are different. Miss or hit, it doesn’t matter. So whether you miss with your axe or hit is irrelevant.

What does matter is landing that first proc and this is in line with what you pointed out above. And as you stated the most critical time is the first 30 seconds and this is where 2h tanking gets funky. You are 50% less likely to land that first critical proc early.

Right before I had to go into retirement I had enough dkp saved up to grab some green scales and finish my red epic. Unfortunately life happened. It was always my plan. In the before time you could also unload a full mallet to offset that nasty random number generator which always likes to hose ya over.

In the 9 months leading up to my 2 year break and since returning I still am impressed by Frostreaver. By far the best option I had for now. I would have liked to rank a wider range of NToV dragons with it but I wasn’t AGs strongest tank so only got to tank a few dragons in there (some minor an a handful of major ones). Never had any problems.

[Toxigen]

Frostreaver is, by and large, the best bang-for-buck warrior weapon out there. It goes for insanely cheap DKP (theres a reason though...the real wars are saving for scales and koi trident).

No one is going to say you can't be on the tank list because you only have a Frostreaver. You just may be near the bottom.

And pardon my ignorance on the finer details of threat generation. I am but a simple elf.

[Troxx]

And that’s what I was saving for lol

[Gannun]

I came to the same conclusion as you a while back on the Frostreaver.

However there is one critical error. The damage bonus is not 37. That's what it is on live.

It is 23 from memory, worked out from the difference between a critical and the actual damage.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I know the words math, logic, evidence etc are all dirty words on this forum thanks to DSM but you will need to bring more to the table than “Wrong on all counts, by a large margin” if you actually want to have a meaningful discussion.

Anywho. I’m happy to discuss but please keep the chest thumping, snide patriarchal preaching, and snark out of future replies Solist.

They are not dirty words because of me. They are dirty words due to people like yourself who discard math, logic, evidence, etc. because you don't like where it leads. You still haven't disproven the math, evidence, and logic from the 4 man group thread. You just kept claiming "I am right and you are wrong", while memeing and insulting.

I am glad to see you are learning "I am right and you are wrong" isn't an argument. You are getting your own favorite non-argument/chest thumping/snide patriarchal preaching/snark thrown back at you.

Now, to the topic at hand, Toxigen is correct. Trident and Red Blade are typically what I see on the top warriors. This has been true for years.

Guilds try and rotate who the MT is on easier encounters, so other players get experience tanking in a live raid situation. But you aren't doing that with a Warrior wielding Frostreaver when AoW is contested. You are always going to pick the well geared warriors to be on the top of the list, so you get the kill. Having AoW flip and kill a bunch of your rogues isn't an option.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Gannun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I came to the same conclusion as you a while back on the Frostreaver.

However there is one critical error. The damage bonus is not 37. That's what it is on live.

It is 23 from memory, worked out from the difference between a critical and the actual damage.

I’m fairly certain it is 37 but admittedly I will have to go back and double check. Current values should be a starting dmg bonus of 28 at delay 28 and then scaling up (monk TStaff being 29 at delay 30). Assuming level 60 of course.

I’m pretty confident AoW would not flip because FR is insufficient aggro. You don’t see FR main tanking … because you use your BEST geared warriors from a survivability standpoint. Best geared warriors generally have far more tools at their disposal … and as I have already preciously stated if I had Trident/red-epic I would use it. I have also, stupidly, but more than once ripped aggro from similar aggro setups.

True/true unrelated.

[Gannun]

Yeah you're right I forgot damage bonus scales with level