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  #21  
Old 09-20-2022, 03:42 PM
Troxx Troxx is offline
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Originally Posted by Gannun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Yeah you're right I forgot damage bonus scales with level
Whew excellent. I was suspicious that was where the disconnect was. I have a saved photo of the damage bonuses broken down by delay and level. I’m assuming your warrior was 54-55 when you saw the low 20s discrepancy.

From 51-60 the damage bonus on FR goes
18
20
21
22
26
27
29
31
33
37

It ramps up very nicely and 43 delay is one of the “sweet spots”
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  #22  
Old 09-20-2022, 03:42 PM
DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is offline
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Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I’m pretty confident AoW would not flip because FR is insufficient aggro. It’s because you use your best geared warriors from a survivability standpoint. Best geared warriors generally have far more tools at their disposal … and as I have already preciously stated if I had Trident/red-epic I would use it. I have also, stupidly, but more than once ripped aggro from similar aggro setups.

True/true unrelated.
It's both to be honest. Typically your well geared warriors also have great agro generation weapons. They may not be Trident/Red Blade since those are really hard to get, but the warriors who are high on the MT list typically have superior weapons to Frostreaver.

I have been to a lot of AoW kills, and never saw one Warrior use Frostreaver. 100% anecdotal, but that is what you were looking for. Typically from what I remember, when we were training warriors to MT AoW, they were still really well geared. You basically need to get the gear first before you become an option.

Things may have changed since then. I don't raid much these days.

Also from what I recall Warriors sometimes used https://wiki.project1999.com/Whitestone_Shield on AoW. So a 2H weapon is off the table anyway. You need a good 1H weapon to sword and board.
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Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 09-20-2022 at 03:46 PM..
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  #23  
Old 09-20-2022, 03:45 PM
Troxx Troxx is offline
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Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
It's both to be honest. Typically your well geared warriors also have great agro generation weapons. They may not be Trident/Red Blade since those are really hard to get, but the warriors who are high on the MT list typically have superior weapons to Frostreaver.
How about you run some numbers and list the combinations that are flatly superior and if so to what degree.

Remember all weapons have static proc rates (ie no proc mods). Threat is now capped at 400 with the only exception being red blade (500) and any damage it adds on top (DD and dot).

There are no “god weapons” after the proc aggro nerf. Before, there were a ton to include crap like WESS and infestation much less feverblade etc.

All the “good ones” now have very comparable raw aggro procs. Beyond that it’s just a function of ratio and damage bonus.
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  #24  
Old 09-20-2022, 04:02 PM
DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is offline
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Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
How about you run some numbers and list the combinations that are flatly superior and if so to what degree.

Remember all weapons have static proc rates (ie no proc mods). Threat is now capped at 400 with the only exception being red blade (500) and any damage it adds on top (DD and dot).

There are no “god weapons” after the proc aggro nerf. Before, there were a ton to include crap like WESS and infestation much less feverblade etc.

All the “good ones” now have very comparable raw aggro procs. Beyond that it’s just a function of ratio and damage bonus.
I'd defer to someone like Allishia who is still actively MTing in raids.

My memory is at least partially from before the clickie Nerf. I believe tanks liked https://wiki.project1999.com/Whitestone_Shield and https://wiki.project1999.com/Blade_of_Carnage on AoW because it offered more HP, and you could coast on the hate generated by dumping midnight mallets into the mob. The delay on that weapon is low, so you were still getting good white damage agro too.

I never saw Frostreaver used in a big encounter. I doubt that has changed, since even after the clickie nerf having a 1h weapon allows you to use a shield if the encounter calls for it. Not to say you can't use Frostreaver as a backup in certain cases. As Allishia points out she uses her 2H Epic in some situations.

Frostreaver is currently still going for cheap DKP-wise, so I don't think there is something hidden in the weapon that people are missing.
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  #25  
Old 09-20-2022, 04:13 PM
Troxx Troxx is offline
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Hidden? No. Under appreciated? Yep.

And yes I’m very much interested in Allyisha’s input. Last time I ran the napkin math Frostreaver was a fair bit above 2h epic:

-procs: 2h epic has a strong proc (675 from 500+ dd). It runs a 300 threat per minute advantage over Frostreaver.
-damage bonus: 2h epic, though faster, actually generates less DB threat because it’s DB is 34. It works out to 1791 hate/min from DB alone. FR is 1857
-white damage potential threat: Frostreaver at 42/43 is a superior ratio to 36/41 … so more actual dps and more actual “white damage” threat.

Both suffer from the whole … 50% less procs which makes the warrior a lot more vulnerable to the random number generated goddess of eq.

But remember. Damage bonus and white aggro threat are a constant. Once you click attack, whether you hit or miss, have avatar or not, critical hit or not … each swing generated identical aggro that is only a function of ratio, damage bonus, and haste (we are assuming here that everyone hits 100%)

The only wild card are the procs. Given enough time you always settle on average but real world could mean you got lucky with 5 procs in the first 30 seconds … or no procs in the first 2 minutes. Al warriors know this and have been there.
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  #26  
Old 09-20-2022, 04:15 PM
Naethyn Naethyn is offline
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Offhand procs 50% less so its really 25% less procs, also epic has 100 hp.
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  #27  
Old 09-20-2022, 04:24 PM
Troxx Troxx is offline
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Going from 2 procs to 3 (2 hander to DW) is a 50% increase. Going from 3 down to 2 (depending on how you look at it … is a 33% drop). Funny how math/numbers work. I just always think of it as a 50% drop in available procs.

What are your thoughts Naethyn?
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  #28  
Old 09-20-2022, 04:35 PM
Naethyn Naethyn is offline
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Math is hard.
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  #29  
Old 09-20-2022, 04:55 PM
Troxx Troxx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Math is hard.
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Lol fair enough. Best response ever.

I have likely taken something fairly simple and over-complicated it.

I’m a bit of a weirdo and do like to dive into nitty gritty details. Always have. Always will.

If nothing else at least maybe people will recognize that just because they don’t see a thing done commonly doesn’t make it bad or not viable. Most high end weapon combinations involving VP blades, epic, NToV weapons … and yes even FR put out strikingly similar threat.

Just wanted to hear from other warriors who two hand tank. Only Ally thus far has mentioned they have or do (even if situationally).
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  #30  
Old 09-20-2022, 04:57 PM
Naethyn Naethyn is offline
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In my experience it comes down to haste. If you have better haste you can use 2h and hold aggro just fine. If you have equal or less haste than you will run into issues.
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