1h or 2h for pally

[Lorraine]

That example was used to highlight the threat generation abilities of the Knight (hybrid) classes when compared directly to the other predominant tanking class (the warrior). As a class, we don't live or die by weapon DPS, and we don't live or die by praying for procs. Paladins can tank (pick up, hold, and control mobs) with no weapons equipped.

As far as the level range goes, during classic there were some specific level ranges for different camps. Frenzy for example, needed a 44lv tank if you had no slower/CC. Efreeti needed a 46+ level tank and a slower/CC was semi mandatory. A paladins great strength is in the fact that the class allows you to snap and hold aggro on multiple mobs at a time, regardless if they are slowed or not and that's due to high threat generation non-damaging spells. I can tank one mob while my enchanter debuffs/slows a mezed mob to oblivion. Tab/switch targets, cast a couple stuns while still holding the other and when my current mob gets bellow 20% I switch to the next one. Warriors can't do that unless the mobs are rooted. Shadowknights feel limited due to avoiding using spells that have DoTs built in.

When it comes to duo/trio, it's a no brainer that you kinda want to have the highest DPS weapon possible equipped. And even in this scenario, it is still situational / subjective.

When the OP starts to get into the interesting level ranges, where enchanters can keep weaponized/max hasted charmed pets around, and when Calm/Root and camp splitting can be vital -- his DPS will not make or break the group. His survivability and multitasking though will make a difference.

Like, in your example.
Were you tanking?
Was the paladin tanking?
Were you killing bats? If yes, who ever was tanking, was he getting stunned frequently? etc etc

There has to be some common ground here, if you're trying to reach some conclusions to this.

Sword of the Morning is pure dope for tanking. It also allows you to have a Sarnak Battle Shield equipped. Starting for low 50s and while you move up in the ladder of dungeons, unless you are able to finish Fiery Avenger and subsequently Fiery Defender, that combo can carry you all the way from tanking in SolB to Karnors to Charasis and to Sebillis. Because sooner than later you will be called to split Ice Cometing or Harm touching group of mobs. And that's when HPs / Resists will start playing a big part in your everyday life.

I'm all for increasing Paladin DPS. The thing is though, when decent mid50s groups can almost break 200 group DPS, your 35-50% increase on the 20DPS tank is actually less important than what it appears to be.


Closing out, I'm not even sure where we're taking this discussion to. I guess my basic principle and point here, is that DPS for a Paladin is not one of his strengths. It's one of our weaknesses. The sooner the OP and basically anyone that wants to play the class understands it, the better it will be. Start building on the class strength. Understand it, accept it, embrace it.
Maybe the 'discrimination' hybrids suffer from, is basically due to the fact that people wake up one day and decide to twink a paladin/ranger/bard and play them like they would twink and play a rogue/monk. And inevitably things get messy.
If you doubt me, go check Loraens post about his comparison between Sakuragi and Snoogan, and his conclusions. It's a fact that a group can get faster and safer exp by using a paladin as a tank instead of a warrior. But some people just can't see past that "oh noes 40% exp penatliez"...

Well, OP, that's the monkey on your back. Make them understand. And they will end up appreciating it.

[Nytch]

Thank you Lorraine and everyone else. I played an Enchanter/Warrior on live and had a couple Pally friends so was always curious about the class. I have a Wiz here as well that I use for soloing when I don't have time to group which is why I picked a Pally to play when I have time to group for the social aspect of things. I remember people arguing over 1h and 2h DPS/Threat generation for warrior in another thread which is what prompted me to ask about the Pally. Basically if it's a full group it really doesn't matter which I use because the DPS increase is going to be a minimal gain as long as we have a well rounded group and anything 2-4 people go with 2h for the DPS increase.

[susvain0362]

For tanking aim for a staff of the mourning. Always se blind for aggro, mobs only run when you aren't on thebaggro list when you cast it so don't pull with it. Use a bow to pull, auto attack and use the quick blind spell. Then taunt and stun if ya need to. I fucking love pally tankingbsonmuch more than a war. You can never lose aggro even to epic'd rogues in the 20s if you do it right.

For dips get a baton of faith with fuss and you are fucking beast.

[susvain0362]

Pally tanking is just fucking awesome because you keep the best fucking agro wit spells. I use blind a lot more than stuns in groups. Once you learn mobs wont run with blind and you know it'll never happen its straight money.

[doeda]

I always prefer 2h over a 1h mostly due to the high delay = less dmg taken from a mob from swinging slower
tried to compete for dps in a group...beat the bard and I was happy but super twinked out kids weren't pulling aggro from me ever, goal complete...just really wish 2H bash was possible, then I would never touch a 1h/shield combo ever again

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Lorraine [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Closing out, I'm not even sure where we're taking this discussion to.

I don't know where it is going to, but I know it continued to this point because there are two camps here.

Your camp is "tanks are supposed to want AC and shields, they aren't supposed to be concerned with damage because that isn't what they're good at even if they DO focus on it."

The other camp is "that's swell, but the reality is that data suggests AC is bonkers on this server + you can do key spell interrupts with bash even if you don't wear a shield 24/7... so you might as well benefit from the extra damage of a 30/40 web that is much cheaper than any comparable 1h+shield combo."

No one is denying that bash to interrupt casters is great or that a tank's job is to keep aggro while taking limited damage. What people are denying is that using a 1h and a shield truly accomplishes those things noticeably better than a 2hb with stun spells and/or shield switches does, especially when 2hb has the added perks of dealing more damage (which in turn reduces damage taken because stuff isn't alive for as long) and costing MUCH less.

[kaev]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't know where it is going to, but I know it continued to this point because there are two camps here.

Your camp is "tanks are supposed to want AC and shields, they aren't supposed to be concerned with damage because that isn't what they're good at even if they DO focus on it."

The other camp is "that's swell, but the reality is that data suggests AC is bonkers on this server + you can do key spell interrupts with bash even if you don't wear a shield 24/7... so you might as well benefit from the extra damage of a 30/40 web that is much cheaper than any comparable 1h+shield combo."

No one is denying that bash to interrupt casters is great or that a tank's job is to keep aggro while taking limited damage. What people are denying is that using a 1h and a shield truly accomplishes those things noticeably better than a 2hb with stun spells and/or shield switches does, especially when 2hb has the added perks of dealing more damage (which in turn reduces damage taken because stuff isn't alive for as long) and costing MUCH less.

If one were to characterize your position as you have the counter it would read as...

The other camp is "who gives a fuck, a less than 1% DPS increase for the group is more important than anything, even if less than 1 mob in 20 actually dies sooner because of it, nothing else matters."

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by Lorraine [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I guess my basic principle and point here, is that DPS for a Paladin is not one of his strengths. It's one of our weaknesses. The sooner the OP and basically anyone that wants to play the class understands it, the better it will be. Start building on the class strength. Understand it, accept it, embrace it.

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your camp is "tanks are supposed to want AC and shields, they aren't supposed to be concerned with damage because that isn't what they're good at even if they DO focus on it."

/facepalm.jpeg

Don't strawman me, this ain't RNF. If you want to disagree with what I say, that's fine - just don't put words I never said in my mouth.

[Tecmos Deception]

If you feel like this:

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your camp is "tanks are supposed to want AC and shields, they aren't supposed to be concerned with damage because that isn't what they're good at even if they DO focus on it."

isn't a pretty fair way of restating this:

Originally Posted by Lorraine [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I guess my basic principle and point here, is that DPS for a Paladin is not one of his strengths. It's one of our weaknesses. The sooner the OP and basically anyone that wants to play the class understands it, the better it will be. Start building on the class strength. Understand it, accept it, embrace it.

then please explain why.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

then please explain why.

I don't have to, because if you didn't skim posts you'd have realized it by now.

I speak of paladins, and paladins only.
I don't particularly care about warriors. Or shadowknights. Or monks (since people use them to tank here as well).

You chose to interpret (and no clue how or why) that I speak of 'tanks' in general. Warriors and monks are directly dependent to their weapon DPS and procs to maintain aggro. Paladins are not, so by definition they are free to choose their preferred weapon of choice. Warriors and monks already have issues as it is, to snap,maintain and hold aggro on non-rooted mobs while exp grinding with a group. Imagine them holding a shield and trying again. If the mobs don't die of laughter, their group members probably will.