When are they Implementing the Charm Nerf?

[-Catherin-]

Now consider this:

As far as we know, charm itself had no fundamental changes from its inception right up to the point where it got nerfed around GoD. How is it exactly that something that was too risky and not worth using all of a sudden is considered way too powerful?

Keep in mind also, that by this point in EQ’s timeline, a caster in cloth was lucky to survive one round of NPC melee. The gap in power between an NPC and a player continued to widen as the game matured. The risk of charming was actually increasing.

So since we are talking about facts, help me understand how charm, which remained pretty much the same over those years, all of a sudden was too powerful to keep as is? What exactly changed in those years?

It was hardware, internet, and general knowledge of the game that changed. It is a fact that these things took exponential leaps over the years. They became the norm rather than the exception. But I really am asking this question too. Something about charm itself may have actually been changed to suddenly make it OP that nobody has found or mentioned. I’m willing to concede when I’m wrong, and if someone can find some evidence of this it would go a long way towards this discussion.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by -Catherin- [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

BTW, your call for pragmatism, while contributing nothing but your own feelings at the same time is pretty amusing as well. It doesnt make you look useful, or smart. Quite the opposite, actually. While I was that teen in the sticks that you descirbe, your education apparently never advanced beyond one. Learn some reading comprehension.

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

it must be sad to live in a world of so many splendid colors yet only see things in black and white.

You can always tell the people with the strong arguments: they're the ones that get personal with responses of insults and condescension [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[-Catherin-]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can always tell the people with the strong arguments: they're the ones that get personal with responses of insults and condescension [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

He started it [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Eleandra]

Originally Posted by -Catherin- [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now consider this:

As far as we know, charm itself had no fundamental changes from its inception right up to the point where it got nerfed around GoD. How is it exactly that something that was too risky and not worth using all of a sudden is considered way too powerful?

Keep in mind also, that by this point in EQ’s timeline, a caster in cloth was lucky to survive one round of NPC melee. The gap in power between an NPC and a player continued to widen as the game matured. The risk of charming was actually increasing.

The changes were new spells: charm was level capped at 51 (dictate aside; not typically used for regular play, though) through Luclin, so the increasing power gap with mobs didn't much matter. As well, PCs were still level-capped at 60 in luclin, so mobs didn't get much more powerful either, raid targets aside. (And please forgive me, I don't totally remember how AAs actually changed things. I know they affected duration, and maybe resists, but I don't recall they let you charm higher *level* mobs?).

Then came PoP and charm jumped to lvl 64. The difference between a level 51 mob, and a level 64 mob, is *enormous*. Additionally, PoP added an instant free 1500hp rune to enchanters, and much better gearing, lowering risk of charm. And this is when charm really got going widely (sooo much bastion of thunder ... or was it halls of Honor? IT's been a long time), as well as at least some designed raids in PoP which allowed the use of charmed mobs.

This is when people started really noticing the power of charming. Charm was nerfed as or just before Omens of War was coming out, I believe, when the level cap of mobs, characters, and charm would increase yet again. (and GoD generally did have much tougher exp mobs than PoP, iirc.).

It was hardware, internet, and general knowledge of the game that changed. It is a fact that these things took exponential leaps over the years. They became the norm rather than the exception. But I really am asking this question too. Something about charm itself may have actually been changed to suddenly make it OP that nobody has found or mentioned. I’m willing to concede when I’m wrong, and if someone can find some evidence of this it would go a long way towards this discussion.

Those things may have mattered too, but I think the level change with the resulting vast increase in charmed mob power was more important, and staring down yet *another* such increase caused the nerf.

Blah blah charm charm.

[-Catherin-]

Originally Posted by Eleandra [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The changes were new spells: charm was level capped at 51

The issue here isnt the level cap of the charm, but rather how reliable charming was. essentially it didnt matter how strong the NPC was, because charm was so unreliable it was going to kill your enchanter and then probably your group. (or just the enchanter if solo).

The charming level cap continued to increase as the levels increased which is expected, but this is not what is being debated. The debate is that charm was too unreliable to use to the extent in which we do on P99. Basically it keeps breaking and you can't rely on it for anything worth relying on it for.

a 1200hp rune isn't really going to change how insane NPC damage output got. As well as the gear by the time charm got nerfed. unless you are talking about higher tier players (time geared etc.) but this once again was NOT the norm.

When we are talking about available gear, it also kind of negates your arguement because that kind of gear was not available on the velious timeline. I'm looking for changes in the reliablity of the spell itself. Out of era gear is irrelevant.

Show me AAs, or evidence that the spells themselves made it EASIER to charm mobs in later expansions, and then we are onto something.

[-Catherin-]

apologies for bad grammar, or completely making a fool of myself etc. I'm a couple drinks in. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Hopefully I don't come home tomorow and regreat this lol.

[DMN]

i have zero exprience with anything luclin/beyond, but it was pretty obvious that charm was going to be getting increasingly poweerful because players ability/pets/stats etc. only increase in damage potential modest linear rate, whereas npcs stats/damage have closer to exponential scaling.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

it must be sad to live in a world of so many splendid colors yet only see things in black and white.

Truth is, it wasn't as simple as people just didn't have access to cable. While it is true that a significant portion ofthe population could not actually get cable, "the sticks" as you say, i'd wager that the majority of people who didn't have cable or better COULD have had cable. The problem was having to convince mumsy and/or dadsy to shell out 150+ dollars a month so you can more effectively stare at elf tiddies all day, a habbit they are already increasingly concerned with. needless to say, many kids couldn't formulate the right pitch to sell their parent(s) on it, especially since they were already paying for a second phone line most likely. And ya 150ish is about right if they hadn't already been using cable(adjusted for inflation). Even as a young adullt having to shell at that kind of cash when you are just starting out in life is not particularly appealing.

I wasn't paying any 150 bucks a month for cable in '99, even adjusting for inflation. I first got it in February '99. Neither was I a little kid. However, as you say, things aren't black and white. Having cable was only a partial help; EQ was still designed to run on a modem and had only a limited transfer rate from the host. Cable provided for a stable connection without the frequent disconnects so often suffered by modem users, but it did NOT match the ping and low latency of modern high-bandwidth services. The kids who only got broadband later on wouldn't remember that aspect, either. EQ was playable with a 300 ping, but I wouldn't have wanted to hold a charmed hasted pet with a 300 ping. Cable took that to usually about a 100 to 150 ping which is still slow enough I see millennials here on P99 call those ping times "unplayable" (hah!), which probably highlights the progression of technology. Either way you still had horrible lag and various wierdness in over-crowded zones because that was a function of the limited data rate from the host, independent of connection type.

I do not believe charm or lull mechanics on P99 perfectly replicate those of the original game (it's an emulator, of course it doesn't), but your own arguments also have truth behind them. Even with mechanics pulled straight out of a 2000-era host players aren't going to play the same way they did back then for a large variety of reasons, up to and including it's easy to be brave when you have pocket clerics always ready to login and there's zero threat from death. No single change would completely affect player behavior. If P99 players have proven anything, it's that they're a clever and resourceful bunch who'll adapt to nearly any change.

Danth

[Eleandra]

Originally Posted by -Catherin- [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

... I'm looking for changes in the reliablity of the spell itself. Out of era gear is irrelevant.

Show me AAs, or evidence that the spells themselves made it EASIER to charm mobs in later expansions, and then we are onto something.

That's exactly the point though: there were no such changes; charm was *always* overpowered, and once the charmable mob levels caught up to content it needed to be nerfed.

People charmed less and grouped more, for sure, but it was known to be an effective tactic; specters in Oasis and OOT for 35+ or so, and Howling Stones ~50+ were well known and recommended solo charming spots for enchanters.

All of the behavior now can be explained with social reasons (fewer groups, more available mobs, solo-ing 'active content' therefore not looked down on), there's no need for the mechanics to be wrong too; what few parses people have found of charm duration (too bad there was no centralized enchanter board like druid's grove or safehouse to find old posts!) support them being *roughly the same*. My experience (granted, memory is fallible) also suggests it is roughly the same - with the caveat that I would believe channeling is slightly easier.

[Eleandra]

WAIT! There was a change: one AA was 'total domination', which lowered the mob's chance to break charm.

But, I don't think this was a big change (certainly nowhere as big as charmable mob level), so I do stand by my points.